There's a difference between the Wigan way and wanting over night success

No one can compare anyone to Madge as he's a one off and trend setter like Bellamy and Bennett before him. People say Tomkins is a once in a generation player well Madge it's a once in a generation super coach.

Wane has had to deal with the loss of a leadership team as well as other senior players that Madge had at his disposal. He's obviously realised that the key to any future and sustained success is by developing a core of talented home grown players. He's doing it right but it takes longer than he's had so far.

I certainly don't think giving Wane a little more time is going against a overall goal of being the dominant English power.

Successful sportsmen/women thrive off the fear of failure.

Shaun Edwards did not try to win every game he ever played in irrespective of what he may say. Shaun Edwards was one of the leading lights in destroying Dorahay which makes a mockery of his attacks upon Brett Kenny re the St Helens premiership match. Similarly, even Shaun Edwards had an A game which he produced with astounding regularity when everything was on the line and it truly mattered. All the greats had a B game standard in them but when it mattered they brought their A game. Bonuses helped too.

If Edwards, Gregory and Hanley had played in this era do you honestly think they would have approached the season as they did back then or would they have been more Leeds. The difference being they would have won both the SL GF and the CC.

I understand what Shaun Wane wants but I also know as you and every other Wigan fan knows, he asks the players to prepare and play at a standard he was not prepared to do (Read John Monie). As a player Shaun Wane dined off the Manly WCC. You would be luck to remember many more similar efforts.

You make a very good point re winners pride. Possibly foolish pride?

I gather that was aimed at me, fwiw I personally rate him as a coach. Just don't rate his handling of some situations within the club, the company he keeps or some of his comments to the media. His comments about gelling are very poor.

Of course i think it played a massive part in the way we died off towards the end of year. It's stupid to suggest that anyone would say otherwise as it's glaring obvious.

But i also go back to some of the injuries we received in training last year i.e did Lima not get injured during what was described as a full contact mid season training session? I'd also talk up the numerous comments he made which motivated other sides especially the war of words he had with Leeds in the lead up to the play off semi final or the extra motivation he gave to Warrington. I'd also point to other 'crass' comments like the ones directed at Saints saying something like 'we want to be playing in the big games (challenge cup) not having a week off like Saints have'

That being said, and going back to my OP on this thread, people seem unable to have a reasoned argument about Wane. Either it's black and white with some people. On the one hand some won't admit that he's ever made a mistake or on the other hand we have others who think won't see any positivity in the job he's done so far.

It could well be but it all depends on if he's going to learn from it. You can forgive a rookie coach from falling to pride. At the end of the day he's Wigan to the core and he probably saw the success we had mid season, especially after Leeds away, and thought he'd keep going hell for leather at it.

We are not talking about overnight success though and therein lies the crux. Shaun Wane had the best apprenticeship anybody could wish for under in your words a once in a generation super coach. He was appointed on the pretext of continuity. However, since becoming coach he has been critical of Madge, boasted how he would do it better than Madge and abandoned significant aspects of the philosophy of Madge to the point you could question did he truly learn and understand what Madge was trying to teach him. The question mark that hangs over Wane is does he understand what is needed to win finals football. McDermott at Leeds does. Shaun Wane's 'Wigan Way' resembles lets be flat track bullys and play non finals but some would say more entertaining RL. Even Rogues thinks our season last season was superb. When I think of Madge I think of John Monie, I think of Graham Lowe, I think of Shaun Edwards the player who all sang from the same hymn sheet and it appears a differwent one from Shaun Wane. Shaun may need to dig out the how To Win Finals Football hymn sheet left for him by Madge, John Monie and Graham Lowe.

I think many people here even the likes of Rogues and the majority who come to the DW are quite happy looking good when it does not matter at the expense of what Wigan RLFC represents. Shaun Wane's RL reminds me of Dougie Laughton's RL. Widnes had the team to beat us at Wembley but they were more interested in entertainment at all costs and could not play finals football. McDermott, Sinfield, Leeds fans must LOL at 'The Wane Way'

Something to ponder; Shaun Wane apart from Sam wants players who are very similar yet he wants them to play non final razzle dazzle RL. It is often muted that great coaches get the most from the players at their disposal and that a huge mistake is to ask players to play in a way they are not suited. Doug Laughton had players who fitted his philosophy, Tony Smith has players who fit his philosophy, Brian Mcdermott has players who fit his philosophy. Does Shaun Wane? What is Shaun Wane's philosophy? He talks about play hard/tough RL but at the same time wants razzle dazzle RL. Can you have your cake and eat it?

It seems to me that vast conclusions are being drawn from the fact that Shaun Wane didn't win the Challenge Cup and/or the Grand Final in his first season as coach.

Have we now reached the stage where we are totally dismissive of finishing top, beating most other teams, etc? Is it really such an underachievement to do that in your first season that it's just treated as irrelevant?

TBF i agree with you to some extent but i wouldn't go to the lengths that you have.

I think Wane learned plenty from Madge and i also think he respects his former mentor. I certainly thinks he 'bought in' to Maguire's discipline approach to the squad. I think he's continued to set the same high professional standards that Madge did and that Wane's standards for what he expects or deems acceptable are way above those of Noble or Milward.

Then again i agree with your comments regarding moving away from what made the team successful. I have to admit that I'm both feet fully in the defence camp. I want to see us move back towards the hard nosed, brutal and unrelenting defensive patterns we saw under Madge. If that impacts on our glitzy attacking patterns then so be it. I truly agree with the saying of 'attack wins games where defence wins championships'. For me Wane moved to far away from that and when we came to real crunch games our old defensive strategy was the deciding difference in us not making a final.

That being said i can't truly knock Wane due to him having a different philosophy on how the game should be played and i don't blame him for trying to put his own stamp on the side. I just think he moved to far away too quickly.

I can honestly see what Wane want's to achieve and i'm excited to see if he can deliver it. If he can then it will generate a long period of success for us and i'm happy to back him (not that he needs my backing)

No a reasonable effort for your first season imo.

Needs to learn from it though.

e.g. Beating HKR by that amount means zip in the great scheme of things.

Needs to learn from Tony Smith and even, dare I say it, Brian McDermott in terms of peaking at the right time.

Hope he has the intelligence to do so.

btw "winning every game" is a fools strategy the way the RL competitions are currently set out.

It's always nice to beat them but they were hardly the top team last year were they? To me the biggest games last year were the two semi finals v Leeds (Lost both) and 1st v 2nd in the league, I.e the Wire games (Lost both). I suppose Saints in the cup QF could go in there but I was just so underwhelmed with Saints last year and this one too.

Its interesting to see the polarisation around coaches performance.
On the hand, SW can be shown to have done a good job up until this point in time, and on the other, trophies dont get handed out for another few months.

What can definitely be said is that he has out performed the doom monger expectations of January, and has shown good judgement in the capabilities of the younger players.

If he can add mental toughness to win the show-down games against Leeds, then he can certainly claim to have cracked 90% of the problem.

As a work in progress, no one can doubt SW has proved to have performed to the equal of, or even in excess of, what could reasonably have been expected from him when he took over.
The question that remains is how that progress measures against the expectation levels of the board and spectators.
There are certainly a vocal minority on here who will claim failure for any season that does not bring a minimum of 1 trophy. Whether you class these people as aspirational or delusional, is very much a personal judgement.

I also think that some of the comments which state that SW inherited everything he knows about RL from MM to be a little dismissive. As far as I am aware, SW made a reputation with the juniors of being a tough task master, building team spirit and developing talent LONG before MM arrived any near the NW of England.
The way some of the posts read, I am surprised that MM wasnt considered as a candidate for pontif and that SW couldnt read or write before MM turned up to show him the way.

I go along with this, and when you consider the players who left, and the players we have injured, the guy deserves some credit to be where we are at this moment in time.

The problem is we can't really judge greatness and good seasons because of the playoffs. I buy a season ticket that gives entry to regular season games and therefore I'd like to win that comp more than any other I.e. GF or CC.
Some people would rather finish 5th and have 40's and 50's put past them throughout the season as long as they won the playoffs where refs decisions have as much influence as the players. That is up to them. I'd rather Shaun Wane do it this way.

A few months ago I'd have said that if SW failed to win anything this year, his number might be up - primarily because the revolution Michael Maguire ushered in seemed to have stopped in its tracks. But since then there have been massive other issues - the loss of so much experience, RU and NRL vultures constantly hovering around the club, the Hock idiocy etc. To achieve what he's achieved with such a reduction in strength is pretty remarkable, and I can't see IFL losing patience with him must yet, unless the rest of this season goes absolutely pear-shaped.

Careful Cruncher.... Those comments could be construed as you thinking SW is the greatest coach ever to be at WRLFC... You "happy clapper" you

Some odd comments on this thread.

Why is it the thing today to talk things down and expect the worst? We are playing great Rugby despite losing players and injuries but some take no pleasure in this.

Don't be so bloody pompous and judgemental.

A lot of people seem to be working on the basis that they didn't like the Shaun Wane appointment at the outset, have thus expected him to fail, and are now creating a semi-imaginary scenario where he will have failed if he doesn't win us a trophy very soon. As I said earlier, I'm not at all sure that IL will share this latter view, though I've no doubt he'll start getting frustrated if we continue to blow semi-finals.

The continuity argument means many including myself who fully supported the appointment of Shaun Wane So your presumption is totally incorrect. Our owner gave Brian Noble 3 seasons when the club was at a very different stage. On that basis, why would your or anybody presume that our owner will give Shaun Wane the same length of time given we are now at a more advanced and beneficial stage in a weakening competition. You cannot inherit a club winning either a SL GF or a CC Final each season and herald winning the hubcap as satisfactory let alone progress. To his credit Shaun Wane, the players and the owner were publically unhappy with the outcome of last season.

The climate of the game has changed since Michael Maguire was here, never mind Brian Noble, and not for the better. Wigan in particular are suffering because of their high profile. Perhaps if Shaun Wane is guilty of anything, it's not asking Leeds how they manage to keep avoiding the attention of RU and NRL scouts. Okay, they briefly lost Smith and Walker, but how Maguire, Hall, Watkins and Jones-Bishop aren't all 'as certain to go' as Sam totally baffles me. But that aside, it's still ridiculous to argue that winning the hubcap - still the hardest trophy to acquire - is a fail.

We'd all prefer the other more meaningful trophies, but Wane has been denuded of players compared to Madge. He's now having to bring through a new generation of Wigan youngsters, something that will not happen overnight. IL doesn't strike me as the sort of Whelan-esque individual who won't take that into consideration. Though, as I said, I have no doubt that he may be tempted to look further if we keep on losing the big games. That was the end of Nobby, as it showed that his limitations were sub-Wigan standard. And it may conceivably be of Shaun Wane.

Can't speak for Brian and Kev but this fan's not laughing. You were really unlucky to lose the play off semi; had you got to OT, I've no doubt whatsoever you'd have beaten wire just as we did. From a purely selfish perspective I'd be delighted if wigan sacked Wane but, if I'm honest, I think a decent British coach deserves better.
Interestingly, there are quite a few on the Leeds board who'd like to see McDermott leave; I really don't get that either.

Its rather an easy one to work out. They never wanted him in the first place and any sign that your side will start losing they will jump on the forums and mouth off. For some they would rather see their club fail if it meant that McDermott or Wane would get fired. As people hate to be wrong.

This site was not too bad but Wiganwarriorsfans.com up to 5-6 weeks ago had 2-3 posters whose only intention seemed to be to slag Wane off about anything related to the club. Especially new signings and especially Blake Green and Matty Smith.