Matty Smith signed with Salford. That was his choice. No idea about Jamie Ellis. Or Bryn Hargreaves. Or thingy at Cas or Paul Johnson at Wakey. They could have been released or not wanted to re-sign. McManus said recently we let a few players go to fund the Kyle Eastmond offer so it might have been that. Or it might not. I'm not privy to the detail of contract negotiations; only what is released in the press or on the Saints site, same as most fans.

On the issue of Jamie Ellis: he's been great for Leigh, but that is at Championship level. He might not have turned out so well in the Superleague. However, he only played two first grade games for us and then disappeared off the radar. I suspect Mick Potter liked instant world classness or something because he only played Lee Gaskell twice last season and then dropped him, even though we had a halfback crisis for a third of last year. Simmons gave Lee Gaskell a few weeks and he began to really grow as a player, but now he has broken his ankle and so can't play for another month.

you can probably think up to 3 but then have to count out loud to go any further , i'll get you going

Mike Cooper Wembley winner
Rhys Evans
Rhys Williams
Tyrone Mcarthy Wembley winner
Matty Blythe
Lee Mitchell.....

and you cant go saying this "first 17 " rubbish...! what team has ever played the same 17 for every game of the season.

oh yeah......If you'd also like to rubbish our youth system while our under 20's sit top of the league and our under 18s are undefeated feel free.

Nice angle,but how many of the above mentioned players would get into your 'strongest 17' ?

1 maybe?

As for having great u20 and u18 squads it means nothing until they start to filter through to the 1st team, assuming they do and you don't go shopping again.

6 very unexperienced players there, lets be honest its not good enough for a top club.

Wigan have:

Sam, Charnley, Joel, Prescott, McIlorum, Hansen, Farrell, O'Loughlin, Mossop, Goulding, Tuson all who are regulary making our starting 17. not forgetting players like Marsh, Crosby, Mellor, Davies, O'Carroll, Hock all with first team experience.

Saints also have a similar amount and Leeds.

Warringtons is getting better yeah but its píss poor at the moment for a top club.

course I can, I did too. The only reason you have Riley in th first 17 is because you signed Joel after the squads were released. So in effect you have 2.