If you go back NK you will see I haven't mentioned Mossop and also said to the captain that you can't really include Mossop in as he's only had 1 year. I think he's going to be a massive player for us and can't wait to see how he develops as a player.

Ahhh fair do's.

Thought it was a strange one. He's looked class hasn't he and has all the tools to become a top player. I had him in my starting line up on the other thread. I really want to see us get him plenty if games.

I like all our young backrowers tbh. I know Tomkins made his errors and Hansen is a little dull if you like but they all have their own qualities and the backrow looks to have a nice balance to it. When we consider theres guys like Farrell waiting to push through aswell they all will have to be on their toes.

We're blessed in that department.

What has any of that got to do with what I wrote which was basically saying I think the opinion they are in some sort of last chance saloon is wrong?

It seems you are the one who has got the wrong end of the stick about the point I was making and getting your knickers in a twist.



Who mentioned anything about them being Wigan lads? What has that got to do with it? I know they have not had perfect seasons but who did?

You say they made crucial errors. Did more experienced players not make crucial errors? I don't think so.

They are young players who simply do not have the experience of someone who has played the game who is say age 28 or older. J Tomkins played 3 games in 2007 and so has been a first team regular for [utwo[/u seasons. The players who get most stick have [umuch more [/uexperience.

There is one exception and that is Phelps. He is also a young player and has made crucial mistakes. His contract is up at the end of next season so is he in the same last chance saloon as well? If not why not? Because he isn't from Wigan?

He is no better than any of those players mentioned but is a fans favourite is my guess as to why his name has not been bracketed with the players being discussed as in the last chance saloon.

Dave

It's not make or break for any of them IMO. To write players of their age and experience off after next season is just daft.

Dave

Nobody is writing them off Dave, just saying that a few of them need a rocket up their and get out of their comfort zones. We know they can play well, but the main ones been mentioned often than not last year didn't produce the level of performances we know they can. HH has a fantastic work rate but can offer more in attack, Joel in the year before last was sensational but hardly shown any of that this year and IMO had more average games than good ones and the likes of Daryl Goulding still maybe young but they've had enough years of experience to know what they should be capable of, it isn't as if they are rookie players in their first year.

But they simply have not had that much experience (bar Hansen). Just because they have been around along time doesn't mean they are experienced players.

Goulding has been around the first team since 2005 yet is only 21 and made his debut in 2005 with one appearance. In 2006 he played 8 SL games games, 15 in 2007, 19 in 2008 and 9 in 2009 (not counting a few games for Salford on the wing).

So his Wigan appearances to date total 52 spread over 5 seasons. Averaging just over 10 games per season. Compare that to an established senior professional e.g. Pat Richards who has played 99 SL games in four seasons. An average close to 25 games a season.

Had Goulding been around this long AND averaging 25 games a season you may have a point but he just hasn't so I don't think you do.

I also don't accept the premise that Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding were actually poor last season or in a comfort zone. When he played Goulding played well and both Hansen and J Tomkins performances were IMO the least of our worries.

Dave

Alot of Gouldings Wigan appearences came from the bench aswell i'd imagine. He's had a decent crack of the whip though imo and probably should have showed a little more improvment then he has done so far. I think alot of people don't think he has the physical tools to make it but i'd love for him to prove us wrong.

As for Hansen and J Tomkins. I just think Hansen does his job and does it pretty well. He's never going to be Gaz Hock but what he brings to the side is important and will be especially important in McGuire's regime that to me looks to be about workrate, defence, effort and commitment. He'll continue to bring all of those.

Moving on to Joel Tomkins i was dissapointed with his season last year but there was still enough in it to sugges and he's going to be a quality player. He's a proper athlete and a real big lad. He let silly errors creep back into his game last year but he strikes me as a lad that needs confidence to play well. The season didn't start well for the side and he never seemed to really recover from that. I'd back the coaching staff and especially Shuan Wane to get the best from him next season.

goulding sayed he enjoyed going to salford so he couls get first team starts but... when he came back to wigan he said that he was glad to be back at wigan

IMO that is a very good assessment of the three players mentioned. I've watched Darrell since he was 16 years of age and expected more of him, but he hasn't delivered yet. I do think that this season will be his last chance, particularly with the likes of Marsh, Thornley and Charnley pushing for chances.

Hansen to me is fine, he is another like Phil Bailey who gets through a lot of in noticed work.

Joel didn't quite kick on last year and as NK says made quite a few costly errors, but I think he will come good, he's big and quick.

All three are relatively young and I believe very good trainers so we'll have to see how they go this season under the new regime.

Everybody deserves a fair crack of the whip this season under a new regime, but beyond that with so many players off contract, it will force players who perhaps are thought to be under performing to buck up there ideas.

Hopefully we'll see under this new regime a willingness to drop players and change the team from week to week, because of both poor performances from individuals as well as changing the team to suit are own needs for defeating different opponents, rather than going with the same team each week come rain or shine.

I'm trying to think of players who were in the first team when Noble arrived that have considerably improved under his coaching and guidance, and I honestly can't think of one player who has. Perhaps under this new regime we'll see current first team players add to there game's elements that have been missing to take them and the team to that next level, the team's performance will only rise and improve when individuals performance's rise and improve.

I think this is true. I think its a clean slate for the lot of them and that includes two who I think consistently under-performed, Riddle and Roberts.

Should they have done better than the less experienced players? Yes in my opinion but it's water under the bridge now. The same should apply to Goulding etc.

I don't think there should be any player under any more pressure to deliver than any other player including those two along with Hansen, J Tomkins and Goulding. They all have to respond to the new regime, fit in with it and train and play as instructed.

If come the end of next season having all started with a clean slate some players are not delivering or responding to the new regime then we can debate then if they need to go but the key point is no one should be under any more pressure then anyone else to perform.

Put it this way, if they didn't perform under Noble and don't perform under MM then it's most likely the player that isn't good enough not the coaching. I am optimistic enough to believe the vast majority of them will perform better under MM.

Dave

I think it's totally correct that it should and will be a clean slate for everybody. Thats really exciting isn't it because it means that all the teams people are picking could be way wrong come the start of the season.

Who's to say at the start of the year Pryce, Ainscough, Mossop etc won't be first team regulars. If they(and others) get their heads down and impress the new man in pre season there is no reason why he won't pick them as starters. He has no loyalty to anybody in this squad which should ensure everybody is fully commited going into the season.

It's a really exciting time at the moment.

Absolutely and yes, the players i mentioned earlier arent on their own but remember (former manager) Mr Noble was not a major fan of Hansen hence the reason H was constantly unhappy at being on the bench every week, and he admittedly got a break of fortune when Gaz Hock got banned and mibbe Joel did too but i repeat.. his place has still got to be won in the side as has Joel who always flatters to decieve for me and i have watched him since his debut (no matter how many fans he has on these boards) as have Darryl and Feka too..

On the Mossop front id say very possibly yes, he's the same, remember he was shipped out to Huddersfield on loan for a reason being that was either Noble wasnt a fan of him and thought there was better to come through or he needed first team regularity! whatever we believe and i did think he was superb in our last 8 to 10 games by the way.
Its going to be interesting how Mr Mcguire dictates as to who his mainstays are going to be but id be willing to bet a shilling that 2 or atleast 1 of the aforementioned players will be getting the toe.
Remember, weve all have our opinions and thats mine

Bob on......

Having just watched the Deacs video I will be interested in the squad numbers for next season....

Very!

It's going to be a good indication of how things are shaping up. Maybe the delay in the new shirts coming out is to give McGuire as much time as he needs before christmas with the squad to decide who should get which numbers.

People are going to want the names and numbers on the backs of their shirts so they have to be released before they go on sale.

From a neutral :

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai

Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Bailey / Hansen
O'Loughlin

McIlorum
Hansen / Mossop
Fielden
Palea'aesina

Mossop to get the number 11 shirt for me. He needs first team football week in week out, he has sooo much potential. We've got a gem there

I'd go with

Phelps
Roberts
Gleeson
Carmont
Richards
S. Tomkins
Leuluai
Coley
Riddell
Prescott
J. Tomkins
Hansen
O'Loughlin

Fielden
Feka
McIlorum
Bailey/Mossop

Phelps (needs to sure up his defence if he wants to keep his place(attack brilliant

Roberts - hopefully he'll be more settled this year, looks like a dangerous player when he wants to be, hopes he gets more involved this season

Glees - Class act, hopefully will be even better with a full Wigan Preseason until his belt (would like to see him given the ball with more space)

Carmont - Another class act, hopefully hes had time to sort them nagging injuries out (hope he plays the required amount of games for a further contract)

Pat (k) - Just keep kicking the goals and scoring the tries



Sam - Hope people are too expectant of him, doubt hes gunna be MOS (although I'd love it

) but hes just gotta keep working on his game and performing, would like to see him take more responibility in the kicking game.

Tommy - 7/9/7/9/7/9 Doesnt matter where hes playing hes a game breaker, give him half a game and hes stepped through. Hope he builds on his partnership with young sam and improves his long kicking game.

Coley - Keep up the good work from last year.

Riddell -Must improve on last year tbh, must lead us around the park better

Prescott -Hugely impressed with the rate of improvement in prescott last year when given his chance to start, hope it continues.

Hansen - Very underrated, gets through shed loads of work in defence, needs to put his hand up to take the ball up more though.

Bailey - Again underated IMO, think him and lockers will be the key to our defence structure next season when he regains fitness. Got a got positional sence in defence and can throw a good pass in attack, also dont have a problem with him fillin in at centre tbh

Lockers (c) - Awesome

Macca - Needs to make better decisions at times but a very good talent, seems to play with alot of passion

Feka - Improve his fitness and we know how good he can be.

Fielden - If Wane can find the old passion of Fielden thats inside him(like his performaces at the back end of 08 when he was really fighting for a world cup place), we could be looking at a good prop forward again (not fielden of old though)

Mossop - Outstanding talent IMO it was obviously sam who got everybody talking, but Mossop I thought was outstanding when given the chance last year, Runs in strong in attack and is burtal in defence, superleague look out

Joel, Ainscough, Deacon, Goulding, Pyrce, O'carrol, Farrell, Davies

Alot of depth in this squad.

1) Phelps
2) Ainscough
3) Gleeson
4) Carmont
5) Richards
6) S Tomkins
7) Deacon


Fielden
9) Leuluai
10) Prescott
11) J Tomkins
12) Hansen
13) O'Loughlin (c)

14) McIllorum
15) Coley
16) Feka
17) Mossop

1icon_cool.gif Roberts
19) Bailey
20) Riddell
21) Goulding
22) Pryce
23) O'Carroll

It's tough because I don't know the type of rugby McGuire plays and what players will suit it. But if i had to pick a best 13 it would be:

[u1.Phelps-[/uSolid, just hope he improves his catching and defence over pre-season and he could be great.
[u2.Roberts-[/u Yes, he has his silly moments, but he could do exactly the same as Pat did, Pat wasn't great first year but look at him now. Hope Amos goes same way.
[u3.Gleeson-[/u impressed last year, hope he carries on. Wouldn't mind him getting more of the ball in attack.
[u4.Carmont-[/u simply, he's an experienced player that helps out the younger ones. Plus the fact he's solid and finds a way to the tryline is a bonus.
[u5.Richards-[/u Pat is Pat, strong in every department, if he improves his goal kicking and puts few more over, we could move up the table.
[u6.Tomkins-[/u Like Pat, another important player to us, hope he carries on from last year.
[u7.Deacon-[/u Glad we signed him, although Tommy is a decent half back, at times seemed lacking in creativity, whereas Deacon,with Sam, can take us to the next level. Quality player when he wants to play.
[u8.Prescott-[/u Last year, was a close second to Sam for young player of year. Proved that he can hack it at the top level and looks a bright future if we keep hold of the likes of him and Mossop.
[u9.Leuluai-[/u If we put Tommy here, he is a totally different player to the one playing at 7. Has shown he can play here in the World Cup and 4 Nations this year, hopefully he can do this for us.
[u10.Coley-[/u Mr reliable from last year, and shown he can lead from the front. Deserved to stayy and hope he can continue next year.
[u11.Mossop-[/u Young but proved at the the tail end of last year (Saints away in the league), that he is a quality of a player. Strong in both attack and defence and even gets the approval of my grandad, which not many forwards do.
[u12.Hansen-[/u It was between him and Joel Tomkins for this place and I think he tips it because he gives us more in both attack and defence, this shown when Harrison was top tackler two years ago. Would rotate him and Tomkins throughout next year.
[u13.O'Loughlin-[/u Captain and proved why last year with too many brilliant performances, and if he would have stayed fit throughout last year, would have run close to MOS. Keep leading us from the front Skipper!

[uSubs:[/u
[uFeka-[/u Massive Impact Player.
[uFielden-[/u Hopefully becomes a new player next year with a new coach.
[uMcIllorum-[/u Shown last year what a great hooker he can be, with the help of Tommy, could become a great player.
[uBailey-[/u Put Bailey in because of 3 things- experience, ability and his leadership he can bring. Great in defence and was missed in the play offs and the rest of the semi-final against Wire. Can play in the forwards or in centre and this could be useful for us.

God, that was too long, pretty useless post but wanted my opinion across

Agree with most of this selection, but would not have coley as the water boy, imo he plyed ok last season in parts to ensure he got his extension the went back to his normal self,

Baliey was worth the extension so long as he keeps the pen count down!!

imo O Carrol will never be what we need him to be .

Bailey will be in the first 13.

Phelps,
Roberts, Gleeson, Carmont, Richards,
S Tomkins, Leuluai,
Fielden, Riddell, Coley,
Hansen, Bailey,
O'Loughlin.

Prescott, Feka, J Tomkins, Deacon,
Goulding, Pryce, O'Carroll, McIlorum,
Mossop, Ainscough, Farrell, Mellor.

I don't think the first 13 will be changed around much but the 14-25 will be the interesting bit. Deacon will be used from the bench I'm sure during the early part of the season interchanging with Sam & Tommy.
Also under the SC which covers the highest paid 25 players we have 23 with first team rugby, just two who have not.
That seems a very deep and experienced squad for next year.

Some really tough choices to make for next season, personally:

1. Phelps
2. Robers
3. Gleeson
4. Carmont
5. Richards
6. S Tomkins
7. Deacon
8. Fielden
9. Riddell
10. Prescott
11. Hansen
12. Bailey
13. O'Loughlin

14. Leuluai
15. Coley
16. J. Tomkins
17. Feka

I'd also completely eliminate the 20 minute by the clock interchanges, and interchange when needed.

The biggest difficulty for me is trying to find game time for: McIlorum, Goulding, Pryce, Ainscough, Mossop, O'Carroll as they all need it. Players like Farrell, Thornley etc I think the odd SL game next season is sufficient but the aforementioned all I feel need more extensive game time and are far too developed already for the U20's and i'm not sure how many overage pllayers are allowed anyway.

Pryce is 23 (24 in July), O'Carroll is 22 (23 in June), Ainscough is 20, Goulding is 21 (22 in March), McIlorum is 21 (22 in January), Mossop is 20 (21 in January) they're all at the ages where they need some significant game time.