Do Cruncher and Juke believe everything the club says as fact? or could it be the club puts a spin on anything it publishes and sometimes NEVER publishes the truth depending on who is involved.

Yes, chinese whispers does occur but is it not better sometimes to be open and honest and move forward? Surely the truth lies between the chinese whispers and the Wigan forum SS?

Yes I'm completely brainwashed

I'm getting help for it, and with some luck one day I too may not believe statements made by a profesional run organisation and in turn will start to believe everything I'm told in the pub or over the Internet!

So if you believe in being open and honest why not ask the posters claiming to be in the know to be open and honest?
After all the lies lance Armstrong as come out with I'm beginning to wonder whether he actually did walk on the moon or not!



Maybe the conspiracy theorists are onto something?

My last post on this Hock/Wane issue.

I have on one hand, one of the most damning, detailed statements i have ever read about a sportsman's actions by his club, outlining many issues since he came back from a 2 year ban for using a banned substance.

On the other hand we have unsubstantiated rumour.

Now, we all like a little gossip, but having received a PM from Vectrabeast, i'm still non the wiser, and the PM actually says nothing more than has been alluded to on the forum. As vectrabeast and last Son Of Wigan are now resorting to personal insults, rather than saying ANYTHING of any value, i feel its time to stop asking them for clarification, and leave them to their beliefs. If they have information that you feel is so important that you are prepared to make suggestive posts on a forum about it, you should be prepared to forward said info to the club to take the necessary action.

Every Wigan fan over the years has heard various rumours about players or the club itself, whether it's from a mate in the pub / a steward at the DW / a relative of a player....etc!

The way I see it:

Category A source: The player or Club Employees actually involved in a rumour, in this case Hock, Wane and IL.

Category B source: immediate family of Category A source.

Category C source: First team squad players and staff. Friends of Category A & B source.

Category D source: Non staff at DW (stewards), Staff and players from other clubs.

Category E source: Pub/work rumours.

Now anything over Category B I would take with a pinch of salt. I've already heard these same rumours twice (Cat E) and there's discrepancies in both stories!!

As you can see embellishment has already started to happen!

I haven't posted what I believe. Nor what I've been told, because there are several different versions.

But to address the main point, it's difficult to seriously say that the truth lies somewhere between the club's official statement and .... nothing!

Maybe Wigan RL are sometimes economical with the truth, and maybe they aren't - I'm sure there are many issues they regularly deal with that are none of our business. But I'm never, ever going to attach credibility to quite damaging stories about Wigan RL posted on the basis of "I'm not going to say anything, you'll just have to trust me" and "believe what you like, but you're basically naive and argumentative for not taking my non-statements at face-value".

It seems highly likely that people are not posting what they have been told because such statements are libelous. Which makes it even more difficult to take those posters seriously. For clarification, you libel someone when the negative statement you've made about them is FALSE.

Now, as regards the posters who are adamant that something really is rotten at the heart of Wigan RL, the best thing they can do is stop trying to tease people about it, and sit back and wait (which is what seems to have happened on the other message board, where the thread in question has now disappeared - I wonder why?).

If it all comes out in the wash, as they say, I'll happily retract my doubts. If it doesn't, we'll know the other party were conned.

I'd also say the majority of posters probably first heard of this rumour from a certain poster on Wigan fans site. So regardless of where he obtained the info from most on here are swearing blind truth on a story they've heard 2nd, 3rd even 4th hand.

The problem with the lower 'category' sources is their desire to be the news-breaker, to prove their status as someone in the know.

They will literally regurgitate any rumour - as has been proven - in the vain hope that it's true - "I told you so!". Each time the rumour is passed on, people add their own little details and exaggerations too it!

I think those with knowledge or at what they think is true do not post for fear of reprisal rather than libel. The name of the third party has not been posted for that reason. I think we can all agree that if that third party has any connection with somebody at Wigan RLFC then it would be a sad day for the club. Certainly not a situation Ian Lenagan would tolerate.

I can only repeat what I said a day or two ago.

If people think IL hasn't heard this rumour, they must be barking ... every man and his dog, certainly all those employed at Wigan RL, have heard it.

First of all I haven't come with an attitude of I know something that you don't, I've merely stated that I believe I know the truth of what has gone on. I'm sure that several others do as well but I haven't questioned them saying you can't possibly know as they may know the same as me. What I do have an issue with the attitude in which some on here try to knock you down and belittle anything you say, my stance is simple, I believe I know what has gone on and with that in mind I won't be openly criticising hock like others have on here and I remain free to have my opinion on how I believe those in charge have dealt with it. As far as I'm concerned that's all I need say on the matter

Which is why I posted back on page 39

First of all I haven't spread any malicious allegations. Just declared that I believe I know what has gone on, if you don't believe me I don't care.

Second of all I don't have a camp on here I speak purely for myself.


The last I will say on the matter is that I believe I know what has gone on, I can't see it coming anytime soon as hock distancing himself from the club will probably be the end of it. I'll also continue to freely and openly give my opinions on things as long as I see fit without the "clique" dismissing or trying to belittle me

I have stated quite clear from the word go that I wouldn't be going into detail and that I am happy for people to leave me to my beliefs

Now where are these personal insults you speak of??

Just so that I understand your position.

Do you think IL knows the full facts?
Do you think he has spoken to Wane, Hock, Radlinski, and some of the players?
If he did was this prior to issuing his statement?

i find this totally bizarre. He has clearly outlined his 'position' on numerous occasions let you are looking for more information?
There's nothing more to say on the topic. Any more highlights the repetitive nature of this forum.
It's clear posters have said all they can on the matter.

The rumours do suggest Ian Lenagan does not know what has happened and was left angry by the refusal of Gareth Hock and Shaun Wane now to divulge what happened. Ian Lenagan although he has sold is company is still reliant upon other employees to honestly inform him of what is happening. Perhaps Ian Lenagan was better with a Chief Executive such as Mick Hogan and Joe Lydon before him? Shame the fans forums ceased.

It does seem that Vectra and Last Son have been attacked by some other posters to the point of bullying.

So you don't think that the likes of Radlinski, Harris and Deacon know what's gone on and Lenagan wouldn't have asked them.

"The rumours do suggest Ian lenegahn does not know what's gone on!"

Unbelievable !



What happens if nothing has gone on and IL knows exactly what the position is?
IL does have employees working for him in that area such as kris radii ski and Simon collinson, are you suggesting they're in on it now?are all the senior players in on it as we'll and covering it up?

So I don't think it's unreasonable for people not to, without further evidence, if they choose to, not believe rumours on an Internet forum? Is that ok?

If I knew something but I couldn't back it up I wouldn't keep reiterating it over and over again to every men and his dog on an Internet forum that they were all deludedly as they didn't believe me. I'd maybe say hock wasn't 100% to blame on e issue then keep my mouth shut.

Unbelieveable! As someone who is relatively independent in this argument, I would say that Ian Lenaghan is one of the few people who does know what has gone on. The delay in making any kind of announcement will have been because Lenaghan has been consulting the club's solicitors prior to making a statement (he did the same thing with Gleeson). Some of the conspiracy theories on here are incredible, but in actual fact the thread has been 48 pages of people allegedly 'in the know' saying absolutely nothing.
Hock has gone. He won't be coming back (although his body language at the Widnes Press conference seemed to show he didn't want to be there), get used to it.

Whether IL knows or not or when he became aware we will never know unless one day he tells us.
In the statement he alludes to the role of Gaz Hock's agent, refers to Gaz refusing to play for Wigan and various requests for a pay increase.
After all that IL did say that he still believed Gaz Hock is a Wigan lad at heart.
IL and Wigan have retained his registration and loaned him out.
To me IL has left enough wriggle room for Hock to make a return sometime in the future. Changes of personnel may have to happen before that but purely on reading IL's statement I'm convinced that there is room in there for the player to come back.
Plenty players have gone on loan and not returned.
Planty have gone on loan and returned.
No real precedent one way or the other.

I will reply to you Rogues Gallery as you seem far more polite than Juke. The rumour states that Ian Lenagan asked the person implicated who is still at Wigan RLFC if he knew the third party or the club was connected to him in anyway. The suggestion is that the person implicated denied even knowing the third party to Ian Lenagan. The person implicated is a senior person which means nobody is saying anything and Gareth Hock has gone to Widnes. I think we have all worked in businesses and organisation where the boss is the last to know because people do not openly tell their senior bosses very much. The rumour also suggests that the senior employee and the third party were both involved in events surrounding Martin Gleeson.

Cue further abuse from Juke

Feel free to point out any "abuse" in my post.

Edit
Apologies, just noticed I'm logged on with my sons I.d!
This is Jukesays.

As I said.
Feel free to point out any "Abuse".

But don't you think that Ian Lenagan would have asked a lot of people what was going on. I somehow can't buy into a complete cover up, not in Wigan where there is a rugby story on every corner and eyes and ears everywhere.