Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I've just watched the game again. Smith had a poor game no doubt about it. I think he just lost his composure after dropping that kick off and then also Bowens pass.He hasn't got a running game so we needed him to give us direction with his passing and more importantly kicking, sadly he did neither. Looking at the match stats there is no way Wigan should have lost that game. www.superleague.co.uk/report/11372'" I beg to differ, I said to the chap next to me that we were making more yards but we were clueless and predictable with the ball. Four tries to three is the important stat and was exactly the point and my main worry all game. Leeds are always a threat, even when teams are on top, we aren't as dangerous when under pressure and when we are on top we aren't crafty enough to capitalise. We lost that game through lack of ideas and poor choices with the ball, not through stats and meters made. Those stats say to me that we did the hard work, made more yards and didn't put the points on the board. Stats don't tell you about movement and dummy runners off the ball, that's where we lacked and why we were predictable.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I've just watched the game again. Smith had a poor game no doubt about it. I think he just lost his composure after dropping that kick off and then also Bowens pass.He hasn't got a running game so we needed him to give us direction with his passing and more importantly kicking, sadly he did neither. Looking at the match stats there is no way Wigan should have lost that game. www.superleague.co.uk/report/11372'" I beg to differ, I said to the chap next to me that we were making more yards but we were clueless and predictable with the ball. Four tries to three is the important stat and was exactly the point and my main worry all game. Leeds are always a threat, even when teams are on top, we aren't as dangerous when under pressure and when we are on top we aren't crafty enough to capitalise. We lost that game through lack of ideas and poor choices with the ball, not through stats and meters made. Those stats say to me that we did the hard work, made more yards and didn't put the points on the board. Stats don't tell you about movement and dummy runners off the ball, that's where we lacked and why we were predictable.

I've been saying the same thing for two years. We have tried it in the past and it failed Edwards/Holden, Brown/Robinson. Saints tried it with Lomax/Gaskell. Hopefully Hampshire stays in the system and goes on loan for 12 months and then comes back to play at #6 with Williams #7. The alternative would be to use him and/or Williams off the bench for few games, but coaches tend not to have a back substitute.

Aside from the dropped ball neither of our halves stood out. No movement and nothing for the Leeds defenders to second guess, one man rugby all game with the same predictable people attempting to hit gaps with no dummy runners to take defenders out. Our halves were on a hiding to nothing, for which I lay the blame with Wane, his game plan and his problem to fix. We scored from a kick that wasn't planned out, it was on the back of a poor last play and then a moment of brilliance from Bowen. No great attacking play to create any doubt, the Leeds defenders could see what was coming every play and it was easy to defend.

I think our attack has gone massively downhill since Harris left. Need some fresh ideas over the off-season.

It's always a risk playing two young halves together and it generally hasn't worked. However, does that mean we continue to rely on Smith even though he simply isn't good enough. He's stood out as our weakest first team player right from the start of the season. The only times he plays well are against the weakest of defences or when it's so wet that it's nearly impossble to play rugby. His defence has been well below par all year. Of course we do have another option in Sam Powell. He actually played well on the right against Huddersfield early in the year. He's more experienced than Hampshire and it means Smith could spell hooker (he may defend better surrounded by the big men down the middle) or Waterworth could get some opportunities.

I just don't see the Smith to hooker routine. His defence isn't great and his passing isn't either so just don't see what he could bring to the role.
I would prefer MM to play 80 minutes every game that he plays.

When talking about tough decisions with Smith I think that call should just be that he's out of the 17. He isn't a hooker anyway and whilst you could say that about Powell also, his defence is robust.

If we throw the following back line at teams next year they'll be more wary then facing a side with Smith in it-

1-Tomkins
2-Manfredi
3-Sarginson
4-Gildart/Gelling
5-Charnley
6-Hampshire
7-Williams

It's a young back line but it's got everything in my opinion and could develop in to one of the best we've had at the club.

Getting picked in the England side is the worst thing that could've happened to him at the moment. Yet more abuse will be hurled at him by opposition and his own fans. He seems to be severely lacking in confidence at the moment.

No he's not had a great season, his main asset is his kicking and that's been well off but It's still there. He's no world beater but he's reliable, a cool head and a good organiser. Williams wouldn't be able to do half the brilliant stuff he does without Smith calling the shots from the back. Last night he did have a nightmare but it's not like he can't do it in big games. I saw somebody say he's not a great passer which I completely disagree with!

I don't buy Hampshire in the halves with Williams, I think that'd be a disaster with both just running at the line every other tackle and the team not knowing what's going on.

Smith needs his own fans to get behind him, he was a stand out player in 2013 when we won the double and I'm sure he can get back on form again. Contrary to the opinion in 2013 most people now seem to be suggesting that he was carried as a poor player in a good side in 2013!

We looked clueless when near the line, which is exactly why I'd pair Hampshire with Williams.

They're both skillful, off the cuff players who like to attack the line and have pace.

Well we had Tomkins and Green in 2013 so he was always 3rd playmaker. I'm not suggesting he was carried but he's never been a dominant half and never will be.

The worst thing is that he hasn't improved at all even following an England tour and playing in numerous finals and big games. If anything he's regressed a lot. Compare his kicking in the CCF 2013 to last night for example. I don't get how a player can just lose a skill set like that.

I think he was equally as important as Green in 2013 in both the CC (far more so in that game) and GF.
I don't think he's just lost it I really think it's a confidence thing. He has had some good games this year, I think he played very well in the semi.

The whole side has been patchy this season but I think fans should stick by a player who has proven in the past that they're good enough. I personally think Micky Mc has had a poor season but nobody lambasts him for it. These are human beings not computer game characters, every player goes through a rough patch. I think Wigan fans have become so entitled that they expect perfection from everybody. I have no doubt that he'll do the job for us next season.

Lots of good points here..

It really wasn't a knock-on. Watch it back without the emotion of it bein your team in a couple of weeks time and you'll realise.

The ball did come out of his hands forward, but it didn't then hit the floor or an opposition player, it hit his own leg (which isn't a knock on, it's the same as juggling it in your own hands) and then goes sideways/even backwards off his leg.

It really was fine.

Joel Tomkins made many stupid/chancy one handed passes and daft flicky offloads that didn't come off. I thought that was too naïve for Grand Final play (much like Wire have been guilty of in big games, not looking after possession enough). There were very very few chancy plays like this in the NRL GF last week. You can't do that sort of thing in the biggest games.

I disagree that he was as important as Green in 2013. Like I said he was 3rd playmaker behind Green and Tomkins. Hell even Iain Thornely set up more tries IIRC.

McIlorum has had plenty of lambasting on here. He's probably the least creative 9 in the league but he's in there for his defence and steady ball play. Smith is in the side for his kicking and organising, both of which have been non-existent for 18 months.

I don't think it's anything to do with entitlement or expecting perfection. He's one of our most experienced players now; he should be commanding the forwards around and kicking us around the park but you don't even notice him on the pitch most games. I just can't believe he's short of confidence.

Oh give over you're just being obtuse now, to suggest he was that unimportant in 2013.

Hardly non-existant, like I said he had a good game in the semi and has had other good games this year but people have completely ignored those.

He does organise and command the players around the pitch, you see him screaming and shouting orders every match. Once again yes he's been off form this season, every player goes through a bad patch. He'll do the job for us next year I'm sure.

You can't believe he's short of confidence? The media and general RL fans have been calling him mediocre and 'not good enough' for years and now his own fans are, I think that would knock anybodies confidence, especially after he's already proven his worth.

I'm not one for scapegoats, but I think Smith has run his race now.

For all the comments about his long kicking game keeping him in the side - does it offer anything like the kind of consistency you'd expect from one of the 2 best teams in the league? For every kick that pins a team down with a scrum 10 metres out, we get ones like on Saturday where he finds the full back on the full on the 3rd tackle.

For me, he's simply not consistently good enough for Wigan, his game fluctuates far too often between good and dreadful.

And this is the jist of it. Matty can be good on his day, less than average on others. That's no use to a team with title ambitions. We need much more from the halves than we have had this last season.

I think that Matty will be one of those players who you miss when he's not there. His kicking game and organisational ability give Wigan some stability at half back that wasn't there when Thomas played scrum half (for all of Thomas's ability).

Of course we need to improve. I'm sure that Matty will be the first to acknowledge that he hasn't had the best of seasons. There are reasons for that. I am backing him to be back to his best next season. Let's lay off the guy in the meantime. He does nothing but give his all for Wigan.

There's no doubting the guys attitude or passion and for all the talk of change, he's going to be here next year and will again be our starting 7.

How do we get more out of him? The first job is to get our forwards dominating more games. They've turned up at the back end of the season and blitzed all comers on the metres made front (including Leeds on Saturday) but it felt as though Smith was already down on confidence and form and he didn't fully turn that around.

Sam Tomkins play making abilities could help him out also. Matty Biwen was a bit more off the cuff and the departure of Green on top of Sam's the previous year left too much for Smith to make up.

I'd certainly like to see Hampshire given his opportunity in the halves but realistically I know it'll be Smith so we've got to get on with it.

I don't think that's enough, to be honest. No one would question his willingness to work and his desire to win matches. But we've looked weak in the attack zone all year, including in the Grand Final. Too many close in chances were simply kicked away. Too often we couldn't break down even desperate defences. In addition, his field kicking leaves a lot to be desired. Too many turnovers occur on or near halfway, because Matty hasn't pushed the opposition back far enough.

But I do agree, we'll miss him if he isn't here ... unless we've replaced him with someone better. And that's always got to be the bottom line.

Smith doesn't have a good kicking game though.

He does from distance IMO. That like everything else was off for him on Saturday but it's been good recently.

His defence has gone back for me, he's taking on the line even less then usual and generally looks short of confidence. He's never going to be a world beater but there's far more in him then what he's produced this year.

In 2013 you have a kicking option in Tomkins and a kicking option in Green. In 2015 Smith made 121 attacking kicks, Williams 67 and Bowen 22. In 2013 Smith made 109 attacking kicks, Green made 80 and Tomkins made 32.

This has a couple of effects. For a start, Smith this year has been more likely to receive the ball for a kick even if not necessarily the best placed of the 3 to put a kick in. On top of that, more kicking options mean it's harder to pressure.

It also makes it much harder for the fullback. If you kick across your body there's a higher chance of a charge down, so kickers will [igenerally [/itry to avoid it. If Smith is a kicker who's right footed, he's generally gonna look to kick to the right. Without alternative kicking options, the fullback can position himself in accordance with this.



Williams stood out, found quick PTBs and consistently looked dangerous. 25 tackles and 15 carries is a very high work rate for a halfback too. You have loads of option runners - there's no such thing as a dummy runner anymore. The problem is you always just string together a couple of second man plays.

The problem with your spine is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players.

I was disappointed with Matty on Saturday. Aside from dropping the ball that led to their first try he was tackled so often in possession it reduced our kicking options, making us far more predictable. Overall he has not enjoyed his best of seasons. I would like to see how a half back combination of Hampshire & Williams would go; but I suppose that is out of the question if the rumours are true, and Rocky is on his way to Cas for a year. It's a shame because I think they would flourish, especially with Sam & Lockers offering advice, help and last tackle kicking alternatives on the field.