Same kind of argument re.Marshal, by a country mile the top try scorer this season but even as a Wigan fan I'd have Ashton and Young ahead of him at international level.
Sometimes it's just hard lines when it comes to international selections.

If he earned his shirt over Isa I would be happy for him to take his place this year in our team.

What people don’t seem to understand sometimes with players is as Rogues pointed out teams need balance.

KPP was very good on Sunday.

Bateman is the proven grafter who knows who to win international matches. He earned that right and he was very good on the day. To suggest either second row should be dropped from that starting team is a big call.

The bench worked very very well so who do you drop there?

Nsemba is far from the finished article, which is a frightening prospect for others, but he does have weaknesses in his game. He needs to be nurtured in the right environments. It’s his first time in camp his first experience and he will be learning all the time. I’m happy if he doesn’t play because he will have got a lot out of this.

It doesn’t matter who you play the international shirt should be respected and I know Wane has the same opinion. You don’t give away international shirts or use it to blood players especially not against a pretty strong Samoan team.

It’s a bit like the clamour for Marshall to get a shirt, I’d love to see it and I wouldn’t swap him for Ashton in the SL comp, but Ashton is a better fit for International games as it’s a different arena.

Nsemba warmed up with the team on Sunday, he has been around all the prep both on and off the field, Bateman and KPP were excellent and McMeeken went very well too. Those lads have earned the right to retain their shirts.

Radley was visibly out on his feet prior to being subbed due to how hard he worked on either side of the ball and the intensity he played at. It’s ok saying he can play 80 but these are very big bodies and they really lifted the intensity in the second half.

If there is one change to be made it’s probably Lees for Thompson as I think without the ban that’s the way we would have lined up and I think whilst Lees was solid he maybe didn’t do enough to make the shirt his own.

Nsemba will get his time, if he plays next week fantastic, I will be there cheering him on and hoping he dominates but if he doesn’t I can understand why not and I think the experience he will have gained by being in camp will be valuable if he plays or not for his development.

Agreed, said same in my post below. SL and international level are very different and what works for one doesn’t always work for the other.

Nsemba is an athletic freak and is made for the test arena but whilst not an athletic freak to the same extent Bateman is also built for that arena and once again backed that up with his performance on Sunday.

I’d love to see Nsemba on the bench on Saturday, I’ve a suspicion he may get that spot, but I’m also fine with it if he doesn’t and think if he isn’t picked it’s a valid decision.

See post below

Sorry meant to quote this one

Not trying to turn this into a Saints v Wigan argument but Lees was the only forward bar Radley to run more than 100m and he also made 25 tackles in his 40 min stint

He had a decent game yesterday.

I have a feeling Luke will com in for Havard and Junior in on the bench in place of Knowles. Having two 13's may have been insurance/planned knowing that Radley hasn't had much game time due to his recent injury and early exit from the play offs. Hopefully better for it next week and we get a full 80 mins from him.

Lees should at least be on the bench , Burgess should be the one dropped for Thompson

Thought Lees went ok can't see him being dropped from the 17.
Think Waney will go with Thompson and Burgess as staring props.
I'd be very surprised to see Nsemba selected as this is his first season in SL. Perhaps Wane brought him into the squad to let him know what an International squad is. Their abilities, standards and expectations.
Feel Ashton will keep his place and Marshy will sit this one out too.

I’m not saying he didn’t I just personally felt Havard went better….but I’ve not watched it back on tv which often changes my perception of a game from watching it live.

I’d think Thompson comes in for Lees of Knowles as his form has been excellent this year, but again he may miss out due to the ban and someone else taking advantage.

It’s great to have options and debate around the depth of an English team!

He did well Lees. I didn't think he should've made the dream team but he's a good player. At international level I feel like he's valuable because like Havard, he's fit as a fiddle and can deal with a fast paced game. You just need to make sure you've got some size/power around him.

Thompson will come in for Knowles. Knowles is a long minutes player and doesn't have the impact doing shorter stints

Watched it back tonight. Lees went well so he definitely won't be the one to make way. I thought the half back debate was stopped in its tracks. Smith was superb and everything came off the back of him. My MOM.

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For some reason I’m not able to quote but in response to @Phuzzy, I actually don’t think there is in reality a half back debate because Smith is the only natural half back in the squad.

The debate really should be Williams or Lewis not Smith or Lewis.

Smith is a natural halfback and both Lewis and Williams are highbrid 5/8ths who could do a job at half back.

Whilst Lewis and Smith both wear 7 for their club sides they play different roles and Smith is by far the better half back of the 2 with his kicking game, organisation play and game management.

That’s not slating Lewis because he does things that Smith can’t too particularly as a running threat and whilst both Williams and Lewis could “do a job” playing the half back role neither are as good as Smith is in that position.

that was virtually the pre-match debate, and all 3 former pros (Wilkin, Brown and Peacock) picked Smith because of his control and ability to do it in the big games

Wilkin did show some stats which showed the difference between Smith and Lewis, but it just really showed that Lewis ran the ball more / backed up, as he scored more tries, made more metres and more tackle bursts. We all know that Smith rarely takes on the line, but creates space for those around him, and his tactical kicking in game is outstanding

The stats comparison between Lewis and Smith is to be fair pretty irrelevant. Saw some things posted on social media around that and people saying this is why Lewis should play 7.

It would much more relevant to compare Lewis stats with French as there roles are more comparable for their teams.

It’s all great debate though I guess and generated interest I just get frustrated when a section of fans were booing Lewis, and some of the Saints players too. What they do at club level and how they play/interact with fans should be put to one side when they pull on an England shirt. Was always the same when England played at Headingley when Tomkins was involved.

Whilst I appreciate there is more to the booing than the debate around who should play 7 it’s certainly a contributing factor.

Great post. Think how much better Hull KR would be if they signed Sneyd instead of May.

Would allow Lewis to play to his strengths and not worry about game management.


I enjoyed the novelty of cheering on the likes of Lewis, Welsby and Williams. I punched the air when Lewis scored.

Thought Daryl Clark had a great game interception apart.

i completely agree in regards to the stats comparing Lewis and Smith, and the experts did also say, should the conversation not be Smith with Williams / Lewis, not Smith or Lewis, so they alluded to the fact that Williams and Lewis are different types of player, and that Smith should play with one of them

as with many others, i just dont get booing our own players, yes, week in week out, when they are representing the club playing Wigan, but put on an England or GB jersey and they are our own v whoever we are playing. I've heard if for years with Bobby Goulding getting it off Wiganers at Wembley v Oz (really didnt get it) and Faz got it for years to when playing 2nd row as Scully was 13. i actually had a massive argument at Huddersfield about that with loads of yorkshiremen, Faz is f***ing s**** etc etc, so i asked if they'd actually watched the 1st test and seen the stats, and that he's playing 2nd row and not 13. When i educated them slightly, they all soon sat down and shut up, and actually got on with supporting GB

I understand the logic in what you are saying about blooding players, but at some point you do have to put them into this type of arena and for me it is better to do it now against Samoa than maybe next year in a three test series against the Aussies, yes Nsemba will be a year older and have more game time under his belt but you will then be blooding a young player against the worlds best team, for me I would take that opportunity now to see how he can perform against a good Samoan team.

It sounds like there will be changes Wane has confirmed Thompson will definitely play. He’s also said they are looking at injuries that both Wingers picked up so Marshy may well get his chance.

looked like Dom Young had his hand in a strapping in a photo i've seen from after the game but didnt look serious if thats the injury, as it was only a light bandage / strapping

He picked up a knock at the game too. He was receiving treatment at one point that I don't remember being picked up on TV.

I think there'll be a few changes.

Thompson will come straight in (and rightly so) and I can see Nsemba off the bench, Marshall for Young or Ashton and Walker replacing Clark.

Wane will be desperate for a 2-0 series win but given there is no third game he can't lose the series. Its a good opportunity to see the likes of Marshall and Nsemba in a Test arena.

I hope he doesn't make too many because we need to win the series and caps shouldn't be handed out for the sake of it. If a winger is inured, then fair enough Marshall comes in and clearly Thompson is in our best 17 but the only other player I'd consider bringing in would be Nsemba. I do think we'll see Chris Hill get a potential send off though.

It's a balancing act though. It's not like football with numerous friendlies throughout the year against decent sides. If he doesn't give players a chance how does he give them international experience and how does he assess how they cope against good teams?

Playing France is a waste of time as would playing an All Stars team. These opportunities don't come up much.