This has been my point all along, he's messed up a major way, he's apologised, it's an isolated incident by one player, not a season full of career ending cheap shots like all the band wagon jumpers are claiming.

It's an isolated incident, let the lad try and make up for it.

Well said Yed! At last, a bit of sanity. It was bad. We all know that as, I'm sure, does Flower. Some of the stuff being said on the back of that is bordering on the hysterical. As bad as it was, I think we need to remember that it's not like it was the worst injury ever inflicted on a rugby field. Hohaia is perfectly alright the last I heard!

I don't think many of us have punched and unconscious and defenceless man though, it's a major talking point caused by nobody but Flower himself.
As soon as we stop commenting on things because someone might get a bit upset it will be the end of any discussion. Nobody (that I have seen) has commented on Ben Flower's overall personality or attacked him personally, just commented that his behaviour is unacceptable. He might be a decent guy, but what he did was out of order and people will talk about it.

No I don't think I have actually but then again I'm a very calm sort of person who doesn't work in an industry where aggression is one of the tools of the trade and everyone has to accept that winding up your players to face aggression with equal or greater aggression is part of the game, there isn't enough money in the world to convince me that I can pick up a rugby ball and run full pelt into 17 stone of pure muscle and a possible forearm to the chin, but thats why I pay my money to stand on the terraces and watch rather than participate.

I'm not convinced that Wane doesn't regularly use this style of winding up his team prior to a game and its certainly worked for your team, maybe this morning he might be thinking that he should spend the winter thinking about a different form of motivation, because giving a set of big daft lads permission to go out and do physical harm to opponents has just backfired in a manner that could have been predicted.

Every person on here, Wigan fan or not has said it was unacceptable, Flower and club have said its unacceptable, and both have apologised to Hohaia and the St Helens club.

Why you need to repeat what he's done like it's something nobody knows is beyond me. I know Wigan are the most disliked club, but it's like all the haters dreams came true all at once, they couldn't care less about Hohaia and his well being as I've read little concern for his well being, it's all negative against Flower and the Wigan club. First thoughts should be with Hohaia, but they aren't, it's just an unbelievable opportunity for the Wigan haters to have a go an recycle the same point.

Let it go, it's done. Wish Hohaia a speedy recovery, let flower learn his fate and deal with it.

Just for your info, I don't particularly "hate" Wigan.
I am concerned for Hohaia's well-being. I said at the time he should have been forced to attend hospital for a scan after such a serious impact to the head when he was unconscious as some brain injuries are not immediately apparent and can only become serious a considerable amount of time after the impact (Natasha Richardson, Michael Scumacher and Petr Cech are the obvious examples).

Good post

To be fair however. Having played the game from the age of 11 until 25 (34 now) i can honestly say that pretty much every coach i played for, liked to give a vitriolic team talk like the one Wane gave in the documentary.

Phrases like "smash him" and "knock him out" were totally common place and you would have to be naive (not suggesting that [uyou[/u are naive) to think that this type rhetoric is not used by a lot of professional coaches.

Being brutal and targeting play makers is part and parcel of the game. As is whipping up your troops with macho team talks.

Again

Great post Yed

Can you do us all a favor and post it on the VT also?

Some of the comments on there regarding wishing horrible things on Flower are pretty sickening.

Maybe but theres brutal in the tackle which is great. Then there's out and out thuggery . No place in our game imo

Totally agree

Flower committed stupid act and deserves a long ban.

But there is thuggery in a lot of games as is punching players who are on the floor. I happens much more that some people are admitting on this site.....

Nice to see Alistair Campbell has a new job

Quote ="Keiththered"[size=200Yes repeatedly stabbing them would be a problem in the eyes of the law[/size. It's the repeated bit that's the problem. You can only use reasonable force to defend yourself. That is where Flower went wrong. His first punch would probably have resulted in a penalty. What he then did was hit an unconscious man on the ground. I don't know where the cold blooded bit comes in as we are discussing things happening in the heat of the moment. You then resort as usual to abuse so I will leave it there.'" I was hoping you'd say this. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... court.html So no, in the eyes of the law this would not be an issue. Please stop making a fool of yourself, it's embarrassing.

Quote ="Keiththered"[size=200Yes repeatedly stabbing them would be a problem in the eyes of the law[/size. It's the repeated bit that's the problem. You can only use reasonable force to defend yourself. That is where Flower went wrong. His first punch would probably have resulted in a penalty. What he then did was hit an unconscious man on the ground. I don't know where the cold blooded bit comes in as we are discussing things happening in the heat of the moment. You then resort as usual to abuse so I will leave it there.'" I was hoping you'd say this. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... court.html So no, in the eyes of the law this would not be an issue. Please stop making a fool of yourself, it's embarrassing.

The offence needs to be viewed the morning after, only then can some objectivity and justice prevail.
Measured response not knee-jerk response.

Maybe Dana International would be more appropriate!

Fair comment. Hope he gets the ban he deserves and we can all move on. He did a crazy thing that will haunt him for the rest of his life.

Recycling a point that many have been making for the last few seasons though, that sooner or later someone was going to get seriously hurt as a result of Wigan's ****house tactics.
Luckily last night wasn't that time but it could've been and let's be honest, players don't come out in that frame of mind, ready to rip someone's head off inside 2 minutes, without a bit of outside influence.

So either the pre match talk and last week's training sessions had him overly wound up or he's just a thug who shouldn't be playing RL.

It's good of you to admit we weren't beaten by the better team but by our coach. At least you are not deluded like most other Sts fans.

Or he's a young man who let his emotions get the better of him, made a mistake and is deeply sorry for it. But yeah, you stick to your simplistic view.

Well forgive me but I simply don't believe you. I don't necessarily mean in anger btw. Just as a turn of phrase. Are you seriously trying tell me you have never said something not literal? Really?

The rest I have no truck with until it comes to the last phrase. That's exactly the point I'm making. Wane does not give ''permission to go out and do physical harm to opponents'' in the sense you are suggesting. No more than any other coach who instructs his team to ''hit them hard'', ''smash them'', ''get in their faces'' or any of the other emotive phrases used regularly in dressing rooms the world over means for his players to go out and play outside the rules.

No seriously, I don't think I have, certainly not since I was in my late teens and worked for a succession of managers who (in the 1970s) worked by tub thumping and shouting and bawling demands rather than by simple explanation - I learned a lot of lessons over about five to six years that have lasted me for the rest of my life, one is that no-one ever made a good decision about anything when they lost their temper, two is that losing your temper is to lose control over your own brain and who wants to admit to that, and three is that in a management situation you take staff along with you, not whip them from behind - served me well when running my own business for twenty-odd years too.

Having said all of that, sport is different, sport is unlike normal life in that a massive dose of competitiveness is required (far more than is healthy in normal life) and in some sports, aggression is required, again far more than is healthy in real life - Wane demonstrated this superbly in the documentary, he would not last two minutes in industry if he tried to direct staff like that.

Wow, that was deep.

So basically you have....



True. I think too many people are quick to judge. Without having operated in the exact same environment, none of us are really at liberty to say what we would or wouldn't do or what mistakes we would or wouldn't make. The only thing that matters here is Hohaia is ok and that the RFL deal with the events in a proper manner. The club and player have issued their apology and it doesn't attempt to fudge the issue which is all you can reasonably ask.

I for one hope Flower gets a lot of emotional support from Wigan. The abuse he's going to get will put a lot of pressure on him and he's going to need support

I'm sorry but how is standing over a stricken man that you have just knocked out, grabbing him by his collar and punching him again "emotions getting the better of him"? That's BS. There are no excuses and no mitigation for what he did and no apology will ever reverse the damage he has caused to the game of rugby league. I really don't get how on one hand wane can apologise after he has been caught on camera telling his players to knock people out?

Regards

King James

A broken nose actually and is under observation for head injury as he was knocked unconscious. Head injuries can lay dormant for a number of days.