Let's see what "kicking in the gonads" looks like by the way shall we - all the things which less well off Americans rely on for their basic existence, which are hugely popular, came from things Democrats did.

Medicare, Medicaid, the Affordable Care Act, Social Security, voting rights, civil rights, minimum wages, Head Start, clean air and clean water. Trump and his party on the poor and the powerless over and over again yet millions of people who don't care to look at the actual facts believe they are their friends.

I've got family/in-laws in the States, the divide between Trump supporters and anybody but Trump makes Britain's great brexit divide look like a squabble over the telly remote.
They'd be amazed if the US survives in its current state the chasm is that huge.

Yeah, but they're going to

Build the Wall
Lock her up
Get Brexit Done

Ooops Sorry, That last ones a different government isn't it, wonder why I got them confused?

That's what happens when you build walls instead of Bridges

The whole mess in the middle east is down to her meddling.

I'm terrified that you've read so many lies that you actually believe this.
Of course I have no doubt you can produce a cogent and coherent argument why this obvious falsehood would be right. Just like you do for all your statements.

You’ve told everyone what not to watch or read (I do none if the above except for a bit of YouTube) so what should we watch or read?
I’ve not seen anywhere on this thread where you have been challenged on your education?

If you are for diversity why no diversity on education? Who was the last Prime Minister not to go to university?
There are 650 MPs how many haven’t been to university?
How many tv presenters unless they are football pundits haven’t been to university?
How many senior civil servants haven’t been to university?

What about diversity of age? I’d love to know how people under the age of day 21 work for the bbc
What about diversity of geography? How many people from say the North East work for National tv?
What about diversity of religion?

I think we agree on lots of things but maybe we have taken a different route in compiling our opinions.

Are you implying you want somebody with no qualifications to be PM?

There are so many straw men in that response the second little pig would be proud.

It's the triumph of the anti-expert movement of the past few years.
Which has, of course, been pedalled in large part by a bunch of Oxbridge and public school educated folk for their own ends.

I genuinely don’t know what you mean by a straw man??
I’m aware of the term but I don’t know what it means.

What I am saying is why limit diversity?

He or she could have say a technical qualifications gained via workplace experience and night school studies
Historically there were many ex trade unionists with no qualifications who become MPs so why not now?

I’m not an anti expert
I tip my hat to plumbers, electricians, bricklayers et al as I would a doctor or a n architect

Nowhere have I "TOLD" people to not watch or read anything, I've been pointed to 2 different links by posters and took the time to read an watch them both.

I'm saying to the poster who reliably informs me that George Floyd died of heart failure and not at the hands of the policeman have a red of this.
A link to the scientific American, and an article where they were disgusted at the gas lighting of George Floyd's autopsy (where 2 autopsies were released).
The first one was critically assessed by the scientific American and it explains why, deflection techniques, etc to draw a smokescreen in front of what was the official reason.
I agree on one thing, time will tell

But the response I got from the poster was, "No, cant say i have, not interested"

So I'm supposed to stand by, read and accept what people like that are saying when they cant be bothered even reading a counter argument or other facts.

As for education, my point was that Ghost99 had been challenged on his education, and basically being told (and your backing it up somewhat with your post above) that anyone who has been to university has been subjected to the Subversion that Post brought to the table, and thus anyone who's been to university shouldnt be listened to because somehow theyre brainwashed/communist/marxists.

Maybe we should just qualify if that applies to all students of higher education, you know like the ones running the current government? The ones who want to keep higher education to themselves
You know, the ones who been employing their own subversion for the last decade under the disguise of Austerity/Brexit and convincing (brainwashing) Workington man that it's all Labours fault, or migrants fault, or anyone else who stands in their way of doing exactly what your accusing the left of doing (by way of the use of the words communist/marxist) which is they're conning the people into believing they're getting what they want, when in reality all they're doing is telling them what they want to hear whilst guess what, doing what's best for them (and I was going to add elite there, but for some strange reason the elite have convinced everyone that the elite arent the top 1%, but anyone who rises to a position above their station)
Now whether each individual believes either side of that argument is up to them, what I can tell you is I speak to enough people who tell me they arent interested in politics, yet want to pick up their knowledge from FB or Twitter etc andbwhen challenged on it dont want to get into a discussion about facts, because they cnat be bothered. I.e. anything more than 3 word slogans is too deep of a debate.

You then ask

"If you are for diversity why no diversity on education? Who was the last Prime Minister not to go to university?
There are 650 MPs how many haven’t been to university?
How many tv presenters unless they are football pundits haven’t been to university?
How many senior civil servants haven’t been to university?

What about diversity of age? I’d love to know how people under the age of day 21 work for the bbc
What about diversity of geography? How many people from say the North East work for National tv?
What about diversity of religion?"

Where or when have I ever said there shouldnt be diversity in any of those areas?
Why are you putting thise words in my mouth?
But your inference here is that it is some kind of plot that all university students are trying to shape their will onto the world, well of course they are, just like the hundreds of thousands of other university graduates each year that you just seem to want ot ignore, you know, judges, lawyers, agricultural studies, dentists, doctors etc.
Are they all involved in some.kind of subversion plot? Or are they brainwashed as well?

As I've said before, thebpeole have voted for their government, for Brexit, they got their wish
I just am amazed that when it doesnt turn out like they were told it would they try and blame the other side and tell everyone it was their fault, and some fall for it.

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"I'm terrified that you've read so many lies that you actually believe this. Of course I have no doubt you can produce a cogent and coherent argument why this obvious falsehood would be right. Just like you do for all your statements.'" It's ok Ghost99, I don't blame you, you can't help thinking that because you have been subverted. Not believing things when there is clear hard evidence in front of you. 1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... JA20110228 2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972 3 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-15397713 4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/natio ... ll-haunts/ I don't know what you call it but I call it meddling that nearly 10 years later is no better off, the whole region is going down the swanny, if she'd have just left Libya alone, she might have got elected. But the instability in the region added with the withdrawal of US forces allowed ISIS to creep in and an massive influx in terrorism. Had she stayed out of Libya, the MEN arena bombing wouldn't have happened..

Quote ="The Ghost of '99"I'm terrified that you've read so many lies that you actually believe this. Of course I have no doubt you can produce a cogent and coherent argument why this obvious falsehood would be right. Just like you do for all your statements.'" It's ok Ghost99, I don't blame you, you can't help thinking that because you have been subverted. Not believing things when there is clear hard evidence in front of you. 1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... JA20110228 2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972 3 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-15397713 4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/natio ... ll-haunts/ I don't know what you call it but I call it meddling that nearly 10 years later is no better off, the whole region is going down the swanny, if she'd have just left Libya alone, she might have got elected. But the instability in the region added with the withdrawal of US forces allowed ISIS to creep in and an massive influx in terrorism. Had she stayed out of Libya, the MEN arena bombing wouldn't have happened..

Quote ="post"It's ok Ghost99, I don't blame you, you can't help thinking that because you have been subverted. Not believing things when there is clear hard evidence in front of you. 1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... JA20110228 2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972 3 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-15397713 4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/natio ... ll-haunts/ I don't know what you call it but I call it meddling that nearly 10 years later is no better off, the whole region is going down the swanny, if she'd have just left Libya alone, she might have got elected. But the instability in the region added with the withdrawal of US forces allowed ISIS to creep in and an massive influx in terrorism. Had she stayed out of Libya, the MEN arena bombing wouldn't have happened..'" So your argument is they shouldn't have interevened in Libya but they should have intervened more in Iraq? That's really your argument?? It's not just a case of you fitting what you're arguing for to fit your pre-ordained position by any chance. In Libya, the choice in 2011 was to either see tens of thousands of Libyans killed by their government. Or take action against that regime to prevent the massacre, with the concomitant effect that the civilians would in all likelihood overthrow the regime with unknown consequences. So in situations like this there are two bad options, not one obviously good one and one obviously bad one. And no doubt memories of what happened in 1995 when the US didn't intervene in Bosnia, leading to the massacre at Sarajevo, played an important part. Buti it is utterly simplistic and on-point stupid to make claims that there was an obvious way to deal with that situation and it was a dilemma which the US, its relatively pacifist leader and its European allies grappled.

Quote ="post"It's ok Ghost99, I don't blame you, you can't help thinking that because you have been subverted. Not believing things when there is clear hard evidence in front of you. 1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... JA20110228 2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12796972 3 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-15397713 4 https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/natio ... ll-haunts/ I don't know what you call it but I call it meddling that nearly 10 years later is no better off, the whole region is going down the swanny, if she'd have just left Libya alone, she might have got elected. But the instability in the region added with the withdrawal of US forces allowed ISIS to creep in and an massive influx in terrorism. Had she stayed out of Libya, the MEN arena bombing wouldn't have happened..'" So your argument is they shouldn't have interevened in Libya but they should have intervened more in Iraq? That's really your argument?? It's not just a case of you fitting what you're arguing for to fit your pre-ordained position by any chance. In Libya, the choice in 2011 was to either see tens of thousands of Libyans killed by their government. Or take action against that regime to prevent the massacre, with the concomitant effect that the civilians would in all likelihood overthrow the regime with unknown consequences. So in situations like this there are two bad options, not one obviously good one and one obviously bad one. And no doubt memories of what happened in 1995 when the US didn't intervene in Bosnia, leading to the massacre at Sarajevo, played an important part. Buti it is utterly simplistic and on-point stupid to make claims that there was an obvious way to deal with that situation and it was a dilemma which the US, its relatively pacifist leader and its European allies grappled.

Oh and as for your hero, Trump wanted US troops on the ground to overthrow Gadaffi, not just allowing a domestic revolution to remove him which might at least have been able to claim the support of the people.

When did I mention Iraq? Are you just putting words into my mouth?

Don't try and complicate the argument just because I've shown facts to prove you wrong. You stated that I believed lies if I thought Hillary Clinton made the middle east more volatile, I gave perfect examples from horses mouth herself as to why it was a mistake to get rid of Gaddafi.

How do you know that I haven't been university? I may have formed my opinions whilst at university based on my experiences.
I don't think that I have ever said that every person who has gone to university is brainwashed or that they ALL involved in a subversive plot?
I said that the more people that go through university the more will be subjected to subversion.
Do you not acknowledge the goals of Gramsci and Laclau + Mouffe tacitly sought to use universities in their use of identity politics in dismantling the capitalist system?
Can't people who didn't go university also shape their will onto the world? I am merely stating that across major areas of our society is exclusively owned by ex university students some as you state e.g. medical based absolutely need formal education based learning but why does it apply to MPs, TV presenters, journalists? Michael Parkinson was a pretty good journalist and broadcaster he had no formal education I believe after his O levels.

I am using education as a sledgehammer to highlight how absurd identity politics are.I did not state that you didn't agree with diversity of education etc I was merely trying to establish if did or didn't agree that diversity is more than sex, gender and race.
Why did Lacalu & Mouffe only choose sex, gender and race for diversity? I suspect they thought these groups would be more useful than groups of say religion or age in dismantling capitalism. They didn't give a shoite about diversity it was a means to an end.

I've met professors, lecturers, students, activists and a politician who are communists but I've yet to meet a plumber, brickie, plasterer or a sparkie who is a communist. Funny that.
When I grew up on our estate there was one guy who was a communist. He never worked in the 40 odd years that I know him. Funny that.

On Brexit by the way I agree with you

You literally said
!!



No, the problem (and by God this affects everything Brexit related as well) is that you have taken a terrifically complicated situation and tried to assign a preposterously simplistic explanation to it. A lot of the time in world diplomacy the matters at hand are complex and intractable, sometimes it involves making decisions when all the options are bad. And yes sometimes I'm sorry to say to you it involves really thinking hard and coming up with something more than meaningless three word soundbites.

I never said that you had or you hadn't?
How do I know you haven't been subjected to subversive tactics used by other Political entities to push you down a particular way of thinking?

It's not strange how people in particular walks of life such as politicians, activists, lecturers etc. have political views, whilst people in Blue collar jobs don't as much - It's quite logical to be honest
What I will say is that if you ask Joe Average, they are more likely to have had different types of Subversion tactics used on them by other methods, platforms.

I also know loads of people in life on my estate who aren't communists, and loads of them haven't worked in 40+ years either
Do I label all of them as something and infer that they're all "Something" ?

"There's a lad on my council Estate voted Brexit - He hates Immigrants, He's never had a Job - He's just a Lazy Right Wing Fascist - So all Brexit voters are the same" - Well it's not true is it?

It's obvious that there are people with certain views on let's say the "Right" side of the argument (And for those tuning in I mean Political right!) who seem to believe that anyone who stands up to the Conservatives, The ERG, Nigel Farage, The Big corporations who don't like paying Taxes, The Greedy, The original "Elite", Donald Trump, Fox news, Brieghtbart etc.etc. are Communists/Marxists immediately.

There's no rational acknowledgement that half of the country want a fairer society and 99.9% of it isn't some subversion plot that we've all been exposed to (I certainly haven't been exposed at University for example because I didn't go to one) manifesting itself as some kind of communist coup.

It worries/saddens me the way the country has turned in the last 10/12 years
I find it abhorrent the Right Wing Rhetoric and the voice it's given to the Armchair Racists (Who continue to grow stronger every day in the current climate)
I find it incredulous that the average man is being told that this government (And it's USA Parallel) that they are the party for you - Whilst they are lining their own pockets and the pockets of the Eton etc. elite - Whilst convincing people that it's the Teachers/lecturers/artists/ and students with their 90k of debt that are the elite!

Lots more

Quote ="post"When did I mention Iraq? Are you just putting words into my mouth? Don't try and complicate the argument just because I've shown facts to prove you wrong. You stated that I believed lies if I thought Hillary Clinton made the middle east more volatile, I gave perfect examples from horses mouth herself as to why it was a mistake to get rid of Gaddafi.'" Not from what I understand - Their "Mistake" as they put it was not having a plan for the day after - And Clinton was very late to the party in wanting to intervene - She debated far more than anyone else and was one of the last to give her advice to Obama Anyway https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ion-libya/

Quote ="post"When did I mention Iraq? Are you just putting words into my mouth? Don't try and complicate the argument just because I've shown facts to prove you wrong. You stated that I believed lies if I thought Hillary Clinton made the middle east more volatile, I gave perfect examples from horses mouth herself as to why it was a mistake to get rid of Gaddafi.'" Not from what I understand - Their "Mistake" as they put it was not having a plan for the day after - And Clinton was very late to the party in wanting to intervene - She debated far more than anyone else and was one of the last to give her advice to Obama Anyway https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ion-libya/

Laclau & Mouffe?
Gramsci?

Why would blue collar workers have less political views than a lecturer or a professor? A politician I can understand but a lecturer?

My politics are honed as the son of a miner who did +40 years down the mines and fervent Labour Party member and Trade Unionist. I read lots of books on politics guided by my old man on which ones would offer alternative views. Once a month we would buy The Times and The Morning Star and compare where possible just how opposite a story can be covered. Not very scientific but we had some great laughs at some of the totally outrageous views aired by both papers.

I included the example of the guy on our estate as communists and indeed fascists are generally lazy. You are correct lots of people are lazy but communists and fascists are just more consistent at it. Great at dismantling almost incapable of constructing. Two cheeks of the same arrishole.
Another example of a lazy communist is Ash Sarker. Literally a communist but a member of the Labour Party.Too lazy or maybe not smart enough to grow TCP.

If lecturers and professors are the high moral holders why don't they look to reduce courses from 3 to 2 years and save students £30k? A bit of unpaid overtime and some weekend workings would go a long way in achieving that Im sure in many degrees.

Who are The Greedy? Would they be Bankers? CEOs? Sportsmen earning over £1m a week? Politicians of all parties cheating on their expenses.

I'm for fighting the class war with you but not with identity politics. For example Im fine with higher taxes and major fines or even prison for companies or individuals who defraud the HMRC.

So the last 10 or 12 years have been bad I suppose I should long for the good old days of the banking crash where governments allowed banks to virtually do whatever they wanted to do and we invaded Iraq?
No government that has ever existed has always been right and can always fix everything be it blue or red.

Quote ="Jukesays"Not from what I understand - Their "Mistake" as they put it was not having a plan for the day after - And Clinton was very late to the party in wanting to intervene - She debated far more than anyone else and was one of the last to give her advice to Obama Anyway https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ion-libya/'" Around that time it kicked off in Egypt, Tunisia etc and they returned to relative normality without intervention and without massacring thousands of their own people. Who controls the present controls the past, who controls the past controls the future. I believe the US/France/UK used it as an excuse to get rid of Gaddafi and justified it saying 'We did it to save lives' when in fact it's cost lives, and some of those lives were in this Country. States like Libya can only be run by someone like Gaddafi.

Quote ="Jukesays"Not from what I understand - Their "Mistake" as they put it was not having a plan for the day after - And Clinton was very late to the party in wanting to intervene - She debated far more than anyone else and was one of the last to give her advice to Obama Anyway https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2 ... ion-libya/'" Around that time it kicked off in Egypt, Tunisia etc and they returned to relative normality without intervention and without massacring thousands of their own people. Who controls the present controls the past, who controls the past controls the future. I believe the US/France/UK used it as an excuse to get rid of Gaddafi and justified it saying 'We did it to save lives' when in fact it's cost lives, and some of those lives were in this Country. States like Libya can only be run by someone like Gaddafi.

Your are changing the subject again and dancing around the question, you said I believed the lies yet I gave proof which backed up my claim whether simplistic or not I was right, you need to admit that.