No - the best thing for England is to win the World Cup.

Teams are made up of a collection of individuals some of whom are MORE important to the team, whilst at the same time not being bigger than the team as a whole. You wouldn't seriously argue that Thornley is as important to Wigan as Lockers would you?

Actually sport is full of players who are vital to the team - players who the team is built around.

England have the following World Class players -

Lockers/Sam/Hall/Graham/Burgess x 2/Hock/Roby. That's 8. Australia probably have 26 (at least)

for us to have any chance of beating Australia they ALL need to be on the park.

Ian Thornley & SOL are equally as important to WIGAN RLFC and should be treated equally.
Whetehr you "Build" a team or structures or their performances on the park are the same is irrelevant.

When it comes to discipline & standards & when it comes to them as individual Human beings they are equally important & Anything else or any other way of dealing with such issues is a long term disaster.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

They are not equally important. They are not treated equally - one out of many examples. Pay. Do you think Matt Bowen is coming over for the same as Thornley. If you do you must be barking.

Think back to when you have you played yourself. Certain individuals are always, shall we say "more equal than others". That's the way of the world. To think otherwise is extremely naive. Some are leaders - others followers. Every successful team has leaders.

Actually we may have hit on McNamara's mistake. Treating James Graham a former captain and one of the best props in the world the same as an uncapped unproven player may have fostered discontent in Graham. We don't know that, it's only a guess of course.

If Lockers did something similar to Hock that broke Wigan's code of conduct I would expect Wane to drop him regardless of the opposition we were due to face, whether that was Stains, Wire or Sydney City Roosters. No individual player regardless of talent/importance is bigger than the team. To let a transgression slip is to let the rot set in one step earlier, which sooner or later will see us going to Wakefield, losing the game and wondering whether we'll we could actually be relegated again.

Correct. Hence why Gleeson was fired off when we had no replacement centre.

In the suggestions that aboveusonlypie makes, 17 players are allowed to do whatever the hell they want and the other members of the squad are forced to like it or lump it.

For England to win the WC everybody has to pull in the right direction and those that aren't need to be removed from the squad.

I understand your point. But the mantra of "no individual is bigger than the team" is a little over stated by fans. My point is that in ALL sports teams some individuals get preferential treatment because of their ability and/or personality. From experience there are two things that determine your place in the unofficial team hierarchy (1) your ability and (2) whether you are "hard" or not. I know that sounds a bit prehistoric and mostly it's implicit, but it's true.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. But there's no way SW would drop Lockers before the World Club Championship.

Fans like to think that all is equal and fair in sport, but it isn't. Young players have to earn the respect of older players. All manner of things go on (sometimes with the knowledge of management, sometimes not) that test the individual and his "bottle".

Some of the best sporting teams have been succesfull despite team members absolutely hating each other and being barely on speaking terms (Yorkshire CC in the 60s, the Argentinian World Cup winners in 1978, Man Utd in 1999, Sean Edwards and Andy Gregory were hardly best pals either - but they respected each other's ability).

Good managers mange these situations not by kicking players out, but by recognising that we don't all have to be friends to win.

Managing a team of winners isn't easy, it's far more complex than - everyone gets treated the same. They're all on different money for a start (and whilst every club has a 'pay structure' that gets ripped up every time the star player wants a rise or the fans demand a new signing).

And to finish. I know we are going off mesage here- I'm always suspicious of managers telling the press "we've got a great team spirit here and even though we've lost nine on the bounce the spirit in the dressing room is fine". Being in a losing dressing room week after week is hell. Professional sportsman are in it to win.

Does anyone watch WWE Raw?
It was from Manchester this week, and the RL World cup got mentioned TWICE.
Commentators Jerry Lawler, Michael Cole and JBL were discussing it briefly.

First time one just said "The rugby league world cups taking place over here"
The second was a longer discussion. About being shown round manchester by a giant, a Huddersfield giant, Earl Crabtree...and again mention of the rugby league world cup.

I just found it strange that they didnt mention the USA being in the QF...still it must have been heard by millions of americans, as well as millions from the scores of country the shows broadcast in. Well done WWE, world wide mention of our sport

England 19 for the France match.

George Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs, Dewsbury Moor)

Sam Burgess (South Sydney Rabbitohs, Dewsbury Moor)

Rob Burrow (Leeds Rhinos, Featherstone Lions)

Josh Charnley (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Patricks)

Rangi Chase (Castleford Tigers, Dannevirke Tigers)

Leroy Cudjoe (Huddersfield Giants, Newsome Panthers)

Liam Farrell (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Patricks)

Brett Ferres (Huddersfield Giants, Smawthorne Panthers)

James Graham (Canterbury Bulldog, Blackbrook)

Ryan Hall (Leeds Rhinos, Oulton Raiders)

Chris Hill (Warrington Wolves, New Spring Lions)

Michael McIlorum (Wigan Warriors, Queens)

Lee Mossop (Wigan Warriors, Hensingham)

Sean O’Loughlin (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Patricks)

James Roby (St Helens, Blackbrook)

Kevin Sinfield (captain) (Leeds Rhinos, Waterhead)

Sam Tomkins (Wigan Warriors, Wigan St Patricks)

Kallum Watkins (Leeds Rhinos, Latchford Albion)

Ben Westwood (Warrington Wolves, Normanton Knights)

Usually watch the catch up on a Friday afternoon after work

Jukesays wrote:
Ian Thornley & SOL are equally as important to WIGAN RLFC and should be treated equally.
Whetehr you "Build" a team or structures or their performances on the park are the same is irrelevant.

When it comes to discipline & standards & when it comes to them as individual Human beings they are equally important & Anything else or any other way of dealing with such issues is a long term disaster.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

They are not equally important. They are not treated equally - one out of many examples. Pay. Do you think Matt Bowen is coming over for the same as Thornley. If you do you must be barking.

Think back to when you have you played yourself. Certain individuals are always, shall we say "more equal than others". That's the way of the world. To think otherwise is extremely naive. Some are leaders - others followers. Every successful team has leaders.

Actually we may have hit on McNamara's mistake. Treating James Graham a former captain and one of the best props in the world the same as an uncapped unproven player may have fostered discontent in Graham. We don't know that, it's only a guess of course.


When my son played in the Wigan academy they all got the same contract for the first two years, so there was an element of equality on paper. But it was clear that the few players with genuine first team potential got more attention, as they rightly should in a professional environment. I honestly could not say if they were allowed more latitude as regards discipline, as they never really stepped out of line. I'm sure Wayney still gives more time to his senior players but I bet they know there is a line that they can't cross. If that is made certain from the start then there should be no need for reprimands.

Once again Brough is poor. Not the half we need especially when his pack have no go forward.

Credit where credit is due much better second half from Brough.

Disagree massively. He has been far from poor tonight.

Brough is too off the cuff for a really top side who challenges for trophies. He needs to be allowed a licence to do what he wants, when he wants and he wouldn't get that with England.

He suits playing for Huddersfield who are always seen as second favourites against the best sides and he's a big fish in a small pond. He is too temperamental when the pressure is on and that's why he always goes missing when it matters most.

Disagree thought Brough was one of the better players tonight. Makes you wonder how he ever got MOS seeing he is so poor. Then again Sir Kev did get WBP last year.

Why would he not get this licence? Rangi Chase seems to have it!

Brough failed to find touch, made a break and passed it to the NZ player when he had two men inside him. His "attempted tackle" on the winger was shambolic. Basically he's a show pony.
Those mistakes cost you in big games.

Yes he kicked a 40/20 but there's a reason he's playing where he is (for club and country)

We know slater didn't but the fact him and Hock more or less did the same thing and what each coach did about it says a lot. As does the policy of each team.

Will being strict disciplinarians by setting such rules meaning Hock going out, having a pint and the coaches reactions to that (not just with Hock) benefit England? Or will letting Slater be "off duty" after a game meaning he doesn't have to be disciplined for having a pint (and getting in trouble afterwards) benefit Australia?

To me the answer is obvious. Australia have the more pragmatic approach to the competition.

That is my issue with Brough, he does some things very well but it's the big moments where he often either falls short or goes missing.

Against poor opposition he can be outstanding, especially when his big pack are rolling forward at the Giants, but when the pressure is on he seems to fade into the background.

Last night was sums him up for me. Poor first half when the Kiwi's were dominant, apart from one moment where he made a great break, then came up with a shocking end product pass. Kiwi's had the ball for the rest of the half scored tries for fun.

Second half game was gone, Kiwi's ease up Brough has a cracking half.

I think he is a good player, but I do not think he would improve the England team. I still am somewhat shocked Matty Smith does not get more mentions in relation to a halfs shirt for England.

Our main problem throughout the tournament has been how lateral our halves have been. The only time they have run direct and taken players with them is in the second half vs Fiji. For me Smith is the best direct running 7 in Super League, and he has showed he can do it when the pressure is on.

I agree with you. I was just replying to someone who referred to Slater as unprofessional.

I agree that McNamara, on the face of things, seems to have over-reacted. And the Aussies appear to have been more pragmatic. But with Hock I suspect there has been more to it than having a beer. Possibly its was the last straw of a series of events, stretching back to South Africa or even earlier camps?. He does have a track record. We just don't know.

Its always tempting to label a coach as misguided or having poor judgement (not saying you are doing this). Its an easy thought process to drift into, and I have to stop myself labeling him such. The reality is that he is likely to be different.

England started this campaign with all the talk focusing on the off field antics/politics, sadly it has continued and ultimately it will end this way.........

I know that Hock has a lot of potential. But given how well Ferres has played (and his form in SL), wtf was Hock in the squad to start with ? He got known discipline issues, hes a pen machine on the field and his form was non-existent.
His inclusion from the start was a concern to me in that it showed up the coach as being a man who picks on rep not form and appalling man management (see also exclusion of Goulding, Smith, Brough, Crabtree who all had excellent SL seasons ahead of Chase, Ablett and Hock)

However - its knock out time now, so I'm all behind whatever team he puts on the field. The ones he's got out for today is the best he can do with the players he has picked. Heres hoping for an exciting fortnight to come !

Have to say I was not very impressed by that English performance. There will have to be a great improvement next week if we are going to get to the final. Watkins is very poor under the high ball and I fancy New Zealand will target him.

The number of errors England are making is a concern and if we give the Kiwis the amount of chances we gave the French at times it could get quite messy. From a selection POV I'm not sure the McCollorum/Roby experiment worked. Roby is by far the best hooker in this country and if we're going to have an interchange hooker on the bench I think Burrow brings that little bit extra zip around the PTB that may give us the edge, I think though McNamara will go with the same option next week. I'd bring Burgess back into the middle to get him involved more as well.

I don't doubt many people will write England off after tonight's game but, we still have a chance but we need to execute well and concentrate for 80 minutes something we haven't done so far in this comp.