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| Quote ="Cruncher"What I don't understand about Madge is how it hasn't kept on working for him in Aus.
He transformed Nobby's Wigan team and initially seemed to have a similarly positive impact at the Bunnies, but then things started going wrong.
[uI'm not sure I buy the criticism that he overloads the players with training.[/u That seemed to work wonders for Wigan, and I can't imagine any NRL players complaining about how fit they are getting.
I'd have him back like a shot, but I can't help wondering if there's some other factor that means he never stays anywhere for long.'"
It is well known and I personally know of 2 players (1 from OZ and one from UK) who made decisions regarding joining or leaving a Madge coached team on the basis of the training methods.
In short it is Brutal (Much more so than under Wane) and works very well short term but has issues longer term.
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| A - World Class; B - Good; C - Useful; D - Average At Best; E - No Place For Him At Wigan.
Sam Tomkins - B (shades of A)
Joe Burgess - B/C (hard to judge to injury, was looking better with each game before his injury)
Dom Manfredi - N/A
Liam Marshall - C/D (Attack is B, defence is D)
Tom Davies - C
Oli Gildart - B
Dan Sarginson - N/A (harsh to judge at this stage)
John Bateman - B
George Williams - C
Tommy Leuluai - C
Sam Powell - C
Morgan Escare - C
Ben Flower - C
Tony Clubb - C
Ryan Sutton - C
Talima Tautai - D
Romain Navarette - C
Joel Tomkins - C
Liam Farrell - B
Willie Isa - D
Sean O'LOughlin - B
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| The choice of grading is particularly harsh.
Should be more like:
A: World Class
B: Very Good
C: Good
D: Average
E: Young with potential
F: Inconsistent
G: Poor
It’s also worth bearing in mind that though you would hope the squad would all rate at least C the reality of the salary cap means most squads will have a fair number of D, E & F’s
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| I think for some it's...
A. Wigan standard.
B. Would never have played in the 80's.
C. WTF is he doing here, send him to Leigh/Wakey/Cas.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"A - World Class; B - Good; C - Useful; D - Average At Best; E - No Place For Him At Wigan.
Sam Tomkins - B (shades of A)
Joe Burgess - B/C (hard to judge to injury, was looking better with each game before his injury)
Dom Manfredi - N/A
Liam Marshall - C/D (Attack is B, defence is D)
Tom Davies - C
Oli Gildart - B
Dan Sarginson - N/A (harsh to judge at this stage)
John Bateman - B
George Williams - C
Tommy Leuluai - C
Sam Powell - C
Morgan Escare - C
Ben Flower - C
Tony Clubb - C
Ryan Sutton - C
Talima Tautai - D
Romain Navarette - C
Joel Tomkins - C
Liam Farrell - B
Willie Isa - D
Sean O'LOughlin - B'"
I know it’s all about opinions but how u can class Williams and Powell as equal is mind boggling! I accept Williams form hasn’t been great but even on poor form he’s miles better than Powell. Still, it’s all about opinions.
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| Quote ="Bigredwarrior"I know it’s all about opinions but how u can class Williams and Powell as equal is mind boggling! I accept Williams form hasn’t been great but even on poor form he’s miles better than Powell. Still, it’s all about opinions.'"
Well the category was 'useful' and I think they've both been useful.
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| Quote ="Mash Butty"Yes the storm had their title stripped from them for overspending'"
Wigan didn't.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"What I don't understand about Madge is how it hasn't kept on working for him in Aus.
He transformed Nobby's Wigan team and initially seemed to have a similarly positive impact at the Bunnies, but then things started going wrong.
I'm not sure I buy the criticism that he overloads the players with training. That seemed to work wonders for Wigan, and I can't imagine any NRL players complaining about how fit they are getting.
I'd have him back like a shot, but I can't help wondering if there's some other factor that means he never stays anywhere for long.'"
Teams worked out a counter attack to his set plays and he couldn't adapt. The games moved on and even the most structured NRL sides have a different set of set plays these days. A lot of Maguire's plays involved using the dummy runners whereas the new type of structures are using the lead man to receive the pass and giving it straight back to the half (Or whoever passed the ball) to negate the offside rulings which have ruined the game in recent years.
We will probably start to use it next year when the Aussies are adept to stopping it. Thats why we struggle so badly at international level to break them down. Our attacking play is a year or 2 behind their defensive structures
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| Oh dear the same old tactic of pass it left because Powell can't do anything has kicked in already.
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| All f/g
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| Quote ="JWarriors"I'm always interested in seeing how our fans rate Escare.
I don't get the hype with him at all. Other than the fact that he's got a bit of pace, I just don't think he's very good.'"
I’m the opposite view, I think if given the opportunity he has shown that he can be electric at full back and his speed and elusiveness can be a nightmare for defences.
I would have preferred Escare to have been given far more opportunities at full back this season.
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| Quote ="bazdev"Teams worked out a counter attack to his set plays and he couldn't adapt. The games moved on and even the most structured NRL sides have a different set of set plays these days. A lot of Maguire's plays involved using the dummy runners whereas the new type of structures are using the lead man to receive the pass and giving it straight back to the half (Or whoever passed the ball) to negate the offside rulings which have ruined the game in recent years.
We will probably start to use it next year when the Aussies are adept to stopping it. Thats why we struggle so badly at international level to break them down. Our attacking play is a year or 2 behind their defensive structures'"
Madge was effective...but it was the most boringly predicable rugby I'd ever saw from them, which carried on until 2014 before you could see SW stamp upon them, imo.
Good grief that Wembley hame of 2013, that was so hard to watch.
....following GF and CC wins from Wigan were more, well, Wigan like!
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| Quote ="dany1979"I’m the opposite view, I think if given the opportunity he has shown that he can be electric at full back and his speed and elusiveness can be a nightmare for defences.
I would have preferred Escare to have been given far more opportunities at full back this season.'"
We lost some much in the CC v Wire when Escare went to FB. He doesn't have the passing, decision making or rugby brain to be anywhere close to Sam as a FB. A potential 7, but no FB for me.
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| Quote ="Jukesays"It is well known and I personally know of 2 players (1 from OZ and one from UK) who made decisions regarding joining or leaving a Madge coached team on the basis of the training methods.
In short it is Brutal (Much more so than under Wane) and works very well short term but has issues longer term.'"
Absolutely right. Souths players were quite dismayed by Madges hard edge and over training. They're raving (and playing well) under Seibold.
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| Quote ="rubber duckie"Madge was effective...but it was the most boringly predicable rugby I'd ever saw from them, which carried on until 2014 before you could see SW stamp upon them, imo.
Good grief that Wembley hame of 2013, that was so hard to watch.
....following GF and CC wins from Wigan were more, well, Wigan like!'"
I have said this many times in the past but was always shot down by the many Madge worshipers on the Rugby sites, glad to see someone else thinking the same
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| Quote ="The Whiffy Kipper"I have said this many times in the past but was always shot down by the many Madge worshipers on the Rugby sites, glad to see someone else thinking the same'"
Running a structure helps players confidence and is effective...however, within a couple of seasons the opposition will have come up to speed with a game plan to counter. Madge was fortunate he only hung around Wigan for that pinnacle period and moved on....his first mistake at Souths was he hung around there too long thinking he wouldn't get caught out.
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| Quote ="dany1979"I’m the opposite view, I think if given the opportunity he has shown that he can be electric at full back and his speed and elusiveness can be a nightmare for defences.
I would have preferred Escare to have been given far more opportunities at full back this season.'"
I certainly find it hard to judge a lad fairly this season based on the odd twenty minutes at Scrum Half when he’s a fullback. It’s the same as I find it hard to criticise a hooker playing at scrum half.
The common denominator in all this is Sam Tomkins and Wanes unwillingness to play him anywhere other then fullback. He’s a more natural halfback then either Escare or Powell but doesn’t want to play there. I personally think it’s time for Josh Woods to be given a run at scrum half and then Powell and Escare can start fighting for games in their natural positions.
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| Quote ="Last Son of Wigan"We lost some much in the CC v Wire when Escare went to FB. He doesn't have the passing, decision making or rugby brain to be anywhere close to Sam as a FB. A potential 7, but no FB for me.'"
I don’t think Amos Roberts had the attributes you have mentioned but on pace alone he was a genuine threat at the back just like Escare can be if given the opportunity.
It’s also not like Sam has had some below par performances at full back this season and unlike Escare he rarely looks to beat the first man due to his loss of speed.
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| Quote ="NickyKiss"I certainly find it hard to judge a lad fairly this season based on the odd twenty minutes at Scrum Half when he’s a fullback. It’s the same as I find it hard to criticise a hooker playing at scrum half.
The common denominator in all this is Sam Tomkins and Wanes unwillingness to play him anywhere other then fullback. He’s a more natural halfback then either Escare or Powell but doesn’t want to play there. I personally think it’s time for Josh Woods to be given a run at scrum half and then Powell and Escare can start fighting for games in their natural positions.'"
Yeah it just makes you wonder what was the thinking when we signed him if there was little intention to give him a fair shot at full back rather than how he is currently being used.
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| I have a draw full of stuff that I bought thinking that it may come in useful one day. So far it has all been a waste of money. Too many of our players are like that. They seem to have been signed because they were available rather than because we had a role for them. We really need the best that we can afford for each position and for the style that we intend to play. That cannot happen until we have a new coach. How can we go into the play offs with four good full backs and only one good centre? And yes, I think Sarginson is never a centre.
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| The key to any sallary capped sport is getting value for money and whilst I can only speculate on wages I would predict some of our bigger earners are simply not providing value for money.
Williams is a clear one, very mediocre despite the hype. Hopefully our new coach can turn around his career that is quickly unravelling.
Tomkins, ok playing well this year in the main but again is he playing to a marquee level? Not in my opinion.
Farrell, one of our senior players and will surely be on a good wage, simply for me the very defenition of average for a few years now.
Joel Tomkins, ok he is going but another who will be on a big wage and could be described as average at best.
That is a massive percentage of cap money tied up in some massively underperforming players.
It looks like this is being addressed by the club but it will be a slow process phasing out or restructuring the pay scales at the club.
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| Quote ="jonh"The key to any sallary capped sport is getting value for money and whilst I can only speculate on wages I would predict some of our bigger earners are simply not providing value for money.
Williams is a clear one, very mediocre despite the hype. Hopefully our new coach can turn around his career that is quickly unravelling.
Tomkins, ok playing well this year in the main but again is he playing to a marquee level? Not in my opinion.
Farrell, one of our senior players and will surely be on a good wage, simply for me the very defenition of average for a few years now.
Joel Tomkins, ok he is going but another who will be on a big wage and could be described as average at best.
That is a massive percentage of cap money tied up in some massively underperforming players.
It looks like this is being addressed by the club but it will be a slow process phasing out or restructuring the pay scales at the club.'"
I totally agree with all of this. It really comes to something when some of the most stand-out performances we've seen all year have come from our kids, or from our semi-retired skipper.
But in this regard, it's difficult not to see the real fault lying with the coaching staff, who ought to be well on top of this sort of thing. GW's absence from games that mattered during the World Cup showed what Wayne Bennett's approach would have been.
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| Quote ="dany1979"Yeah it just makes you wonder what was the thinking when we signed him if there was little intention to give him a fair shot at full back rather than how he is currently being used.'"
We bought him on a 1 year contract to cover for the injured Tomkins who we knew would be out until June that year. Let’s be honest, he exceeded expectations, hence he was given an extended contract. He’s not as good as Tomkins at fullback although good cover.
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| Quote ="Bigredwarrior"We bought him on a 1 year contract to cover for the injured Tomkins who we knew would be out until June that year. Let’s be honest, he exceeded expectations, hence he was given an extended contract. He’s not as good as Tomkins at fullback although good cover.'"
I don’t think Escare did exceed expectations to be honest.
He’s shown many times for Catalans that he can be a fine full back and can cause real problems for defences with his speed.
That was the reason I thought we had signed him.
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| Quote ="dany1979"I don’t think Escare did exceed expectations to be honest.
He’s shown many times for Catalans that he can be a fine full back and can cause real problems for defences with his speed.
That was the reason I thought we had signed him.'"
Fair enough mate but I think the majority would say he’d exceeded expectations. He performed consistently well at a high level for us but couldn’t get a game for Catalan. I’m fairly sure if he’d played for Catalan the way he’d played for us he’d have kept his place in the side.
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