At least he came back on after the head knock - I almost choked on my beer when he reappeared. Thought he'd be in ICU for the next week.

You wouldn't say he had a good game, because you don't like rate him.

Greenwood offers a threat in attack and Isa doesn't- it's as simple as that. He offers a plan B when plan A isn't working, or when you need that natural size.

You're whole approach seems to just be narrowed down to effort. You'd happily carry a limited player like Isa because he's tough as teak, but won't give Greenwood the time of day because he isn't.

King for me has really progressed into a decent player.
Pretty aggressive and always looking to offload.
A very difficult opponent for Isa particularly as he hasn't played centre for quite a while.

For me Greenwood "trundles" in too much. For such a big guy he doesn't make use of his size and weight.
He's playing better than last season but that is a very low bar as a comparator

and fair play to Hardaker for not losing his rag when Austin tried to rip his head off

Sadly some players don't have that mind set, but it doesn't mean they are bad players - they just won't ever be as good as they could be. Greenwood is that player.

I look at Isa and also think 'if only'. If only he was a bit bigger, if only he could transfer all that effort into something actually dangerous to the opposition. He just doesn't make an impact, no matter how much we love his attitude. Greenwood makes an impact near the line, which is at least something.

A good big one, will always beat a good little one as they say.

I don’t like him as a player no.

I really don’t think he had a good game.

He was better than he has been at times but still not what I would call “good”.

Isa for me offers more strike runs better harder lines and offers more impact in attack and defence.

Toughness like it or not is a massive part of the game, especially in the pack.

I genuinely can’t think of any really good second rows that you couldn’t describe as tough.

I think the reason that Zak is doing so well for Wigan is because unlike his previous clubs we did right by him and put him into rehab to make sure he sorted his head out,well done that man for moving on with his life

It’s also somewhat ironic you don’t think I will give him credit because I don’t like him as a player...on a topic I started about a player I didn’t like who is proving me wrong.

Still waiting for the strike secondrow forward the Titans signed...and then we signed to turn up.

Still interesting to see a lot of Saints fans were more than happy to let go due to him only turning up in the opposition 20m zone.

How does he offer more impact in attack when he offers literally nothing? Whether you like it or not effort isn't everything - at some point that effort needs to turn into something in attack. He can run all the 'tough lines' he wants, but he's never breaking through.

The sad fact is that a coasting JG is more of a threat than Isa will ever be. Ideally both would be moved on an we'd get someone else, but if I had to lose one then it would be Isa every day of the week.

Greenwood with the right players around him still offers plenty for me. It’s extremely rare to get a player who brings everything to the table and in Greenwood’s case his weaknesses are around his aggression and toughness. If you have another few of those alongside him you’ve got problems but in a side with guys like Bateman (next season), Partington, Isa, Singleton etc you can use his strengths when you see fit and get a balance around him. He’s extremely frustrating but he’s a talent and he does offer us a point of difference.

Interesting our coaches don’t agree with you.

Disagree with you on Zak but I do agree with you on Isa (to an extent). Isa is tough as old boots, runs hard, tackles hard and I can’t honestly say he doesn’t do that week in week out win or lose. He is limited though, he doesn’t run great lines, doesn’t really get on the end of balls or moves through defensive gaps where as Greenwood can and does.

For me it depends on what type of game it is. If it’s likely to be a bell ringer you’d pick Isa to partner Faz all day long. If it’s a game of chess reliant on good line running and attacking prowess as opposed to toughness then you’d choose Greenwood.

I feel it’s a rather mute argument though. Next season when Bateman is back it’ll be him and Faz starting backrowers.

Zak is a 8 out of 10 payer but rads was a 9-10/ player

Isa has been a decent threat with the ball recently. I don’t think just what Isa brings to the side is appreciated enough. You cannot measure some of the things he adds. His desire, his spirit, leadership etc. He’s a guy who drags every ounce of talent out of himself and I think he’s vital to this squad. He’s had a monopoly on that right sided second row spot since Bateman left and whilst that probably won’t be the case from next season, I’d have a place in my 17 for him. I’d like to see him play a bit more in the middle at 13. He turned his career round at Widnes when he went in to the middle.

You do realise the two are completely the different right? That's unless you never liked ZH as a player? If that's the case and he's now "proving you wrong", despite not being as good as he once was (not a dig) then you really do put too much emphasis on the wrong areas of the game.

You also realise you just contradicted yourself too. What is GW then? A player who comes alive on the opposition 20m line, or not? You can't bag him for not being the strike centre you wanted him to be and then bag him for only coming alive near the try line. By acknowledging he's comes alive near the line means, by definition, he's a strike 2nd row.

Zac's effort in this team is second to none, if all our players turned up with the same attitude we would be a better team. For me, he was our MOTM tonight.

No I didn’t like Zak as a player because of the fact he consistently let his team down.

He did the same with us initially.

He this season seems to be applying himself and is putting in some fantastic performances. He has matured, he has lost his petulant side. He is becoming a leader who steps up when we need a big play.

I’m not sure how I contradicted myself. Saints fans when we signed him said he only looks interested in the opposition 20m zone.

Also he is a second row not a centre.

You can’t carry a second row forward who isn’t willing to make a tough carry off the line.

It’s a basic requirement of the role.

A strike second row also has the ability to score a try or break a tackle, no player playing second row can shirk the hard yards though...once again which is exactly the reason he can’t get a regular spot in the 17.

Funnily enough that's another area we disagree on. Lam is probably the worst coach we've had since Betts (2003), but you seem to think he's doing a stand up job.

Coaches need to get the best out of players. Some fans want robots and commitment and that's it. As another poster has said, Greenwood offers something different and if Lam isn't open to anything outside of his tunnel vision, that speaks louder about his lack of ability than anything else.

OT, but id recommend to anyone who has an interest in sport, or great teams goes and watches the Last Dance documentary. It's a perfect example of how a truly master coach works with different personalities to greater benefit the team. In that Bulls side you couldn't have matched two more different personalities than Jordan and Rodman, but the coach made it work. He understood different players have different needs and approaches to the game.

I think Lam did a great job today and I think he deserves a chance to build his team into next season, I think it’s great he is blooding youngsters and we are seeing certain players improve.

It’s also convenient to forget that without Lam it’s unlikely we would have both Hastings and French.

You can turn it all you want but Lam doesn’t see him as good enough to play in our 17, neither did Neil Henry or Garth Brenan.

Saints were more than happy to take a real secondrow forward in exchange for him as were most of their fans.

That speaks volumes.

He won’t get another contract at Wigan if Lam is here or not in my opinion.

Where is that stripey chap from Nottingham telling us all how Hardaker is about to implode again???

Zac is turning into a leader for us,he's always there to congratulate anyone who scored or makes a good tackle i think he's just grown up and enjoying his rugby again, and while we shouldn't forget what's happened before he should be judged on what he's doing for us

Greenwood was always a very frustrating figure for Saints fans. There’s no doubting his talent but as others have alluded to, his mentality and lack of toughness was always questioned. He always came across like someone who was more than capable but never really wanted it enough. He’s not someone I’d want at my side when the going got tough. Taia in comparison came in and not only offered a huge attacking threat he was also willing to get his hands dirty. Greenwood not so much.
On the flip side, as you’ve stated in your post, 20 yards out there’s probably only Liam Farrell who knows how to run a better line and crash over. He’s still “only” 27 so plenty time left but you’d like to think he’d have toughened up a bit by now.

As for the game last night, for what it’s worth I thought Hardaker was superb but for me the changing point was Smith to the halves, I thought you looked much more dangerous after that. As an opposition fan I’d be more wary of Smith than Leuluai in an attacking sense without a doubt. Thought Singleton went well too, he’ll quickly become your best prop alongside Havard.

Was speaking up a coach about Greenwood a few years ago when he moved to the Titans.

I thought it was a great move for him and he disagreed.

His told me basically Greenwood had always been the superstar as a kid. He was always destined for the pro game. He was the lad that got the ball in the juniors and went the length of the field scoring tries for fun on nearly every carry.

He then joined Saints and again showed up very well in their Academy team and was quickly introduced to the first team. He joined the first team and was surrounded by a dominant pack so he could be that luxury player.

His opinion was that through this development and his SL career he had never had to graft. Never had to learn the tough stuff and that the NRL would quickly find him out or be the making of him as he would have to develop those traits pretty quickly if he was to be a success. We know how that went.

He is 27 now and still it seems unwilling to do the basic requirements of the job of a secondrow forward. I’ve no doubt he has bags of talent and potential but there is something missing and again at his stage of his career I’m not sure he can or has the time to find it if he wishes to be a regular in a team with trophy ambitions.

I hope he doesn’t. If he can keep playing like he did last night (and not screw-up off the field), he should be first pick at centre for England at the World Cup.
Didn’t think we went too well last year at full-back, but he’s certainly found form playing at centre.

Gildart,King,Percival are all better centre's than Zak and you also have Watkins showing some decent form for Salford