Actually we are experts now at not winning them hence Vastys point you have no chance we know

Quote ="Bigredwarrior"Yes it's Wane's fault Clubb needed a kidney removed! It's his fault Leuluai broke his jaw, it's his fault Flower snapped an Achilles' tendon during a game, it's his fault Bateman needed shoulder surgery following an injury during a game, it was his fault Manfredi damaged his knee in a twist during a tackle last year, it's his fault McIlorum broke his ankle during a game.... Get a grip, the above cannot be put down to training techniques and it's a collision sport in which players get hurt. We play the game tough and I wouldn't want it any other way. We are champions and world champions because of Wane, not in spite of him. The last few weeks we've been poor but the young lads need a rest and will get one soon. Judge the team and Wane at the end of the season. I'd say the top 4 might be gone but we could still win the challenge cup and in the circumstances that wouldn't be the end of the world.'" It seems SW has admitted that he should have seen the signs that something wasn't right with Clubb: www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby-l ... -1-8623290

Quote ="Bigredwarrior"Yes it's Wane's fault Clubb needed a kidney removed! It's his fault Leuluai broke his jaw, it's his fault Flower snapped an Achilles' tendon during a game, it's his fault Bateman needed shoulder surgery following an injury during a game, it was his fault Manfredi damaged his knee in a twist during a tackle last year, it's his fault McIlorum broke his ankle during a game.... Get a grip, the above cannot be put down to training techniques and it's a collision sport in which players get hurt. We play the game tough and I wouldn't want it any other way. We are champions and world champions because of Wane, not in spite of him. The last few weeks we've been poor but the young lads need a rest and will get one soon. Judge the team and Wane at the end of the season. I'd say the top 4 might be gone but we could still win the challenge cup and in the circumstances that wouldn't be the end of the world.'" It seems SW has admitted that he should have seen the signs that something wasn't right with Clubb: www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby-l ... -1-8623290

Hindsight is always 20/20...

It's also not helped that last season was similar so over 2yearssome players have played a lot more than would normally be expected the resins for so many and for so long is probably going to be different from each player but it does seem odd that it's a similar issue this year as last but it's just starting to take it's toll I don't think wane cane be totally responsible many players play with niggles and say they feel better than they really do but sometimes that extra game or two would pay off in the long run !

And yes goal kickers are vital I remember botica being a great kicker a good player who without his kicking possibly wouldn't have been in that Wigan team at that time?? The strong certainty of a try being converted is crucial and can translate to 4-10 league points and be the difference between winning and losing crucial games and finals !!

I hope you get players back and thi kicking issue sorted after we play you tho lol

Quote ="muttywhitedog"It seems SW has admitted that he should have seen the signs that something wasn't right with Clubb: www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby-l ... -1-8623290'" I saw this mate but I stand by my comment. I can just imagine the conversation. 'Tony Clubb is having a poor game, he must need a kidney removed!' Seriously I don't know how anybody could have known but what an attitude the lad must have. To come back after 58 days and play like he did speaks volumes. Great to have him back. A point of interest (glass half full), although our form is still scratchy, we haven't lost any of the last 3 games. The returning players are getting fitter and I'm confident we'll get a win in France next week.

Quote ="muttywhitedog"It seems SW has admitted that he should have seen the signs that something wasn't right with Clubb: www.wigantoday.net/sport/rugby-l ... -1-8623290'" I saw this mate but I stand by my comment. I can just imagine the conversation. 'Tony Clubb is having a poor game, he must need a kidney removed!' Seriously I don't know how anybody could have known but what an attitude the lad must have. To come back after 58 days and play like he did speaks volumes. Great to have him back. A point of interest (glass half full), although our form is still scratchy, we haven't lost any of the last 3 games. The returning players are getting fitter and I'm confident we'll get a win in France next week.

If the Catalans of the first half vs Leigh turn up, we'll wallop them. Second, then we've got a game on our hands, returning players or not.

Having said, it's almost getting to a 'win or bust' stage if we want to get into the top 4, and that usually means we turn up, so I wouldn't be surprised to see us go unbeaten until the middle 8s now.

16 of those were in the 17 last night, and we were still poor. Still think its not the coaching staff's fault?

Where did I say it's not the coaching staff's fault?

It was a general question to the Happy Clappers who think the coaching methods of SW & Co were fine and it was just a case of "When we got all our injured players back we'll thump the opposition".

I guess you sit with me on this one - we scraped our way through most games last season, found a bit of form at the back end when everyone else was losing theirs, just nosed the GF, and have been well and truly found out this season.

Somewhere in between I suppose. I thought we played terrible rugby for the majority of last season and would have wanted Wane out had we not won the Grand Final. However, since then we won the Grand Final whilst missing key players then won the World Club Challenge, so for me he now has enough credit in the bank to see how he goes next year regardless.

I don't think we could realistically expect the injured players to return and things to click straight away. They aren't used to playing together and morale must have been absolutely battered. Next season should the litmus test

Grimy at face value your argument is valid however, we have played shoite rugby now for 4 consecutive seasons and personally my loyalty has has been shattered which is something i never thought I would say.
Coaching wise playing wise something has to change otherwise ST sales will dive. Not knowing the stats but I'd wager a few bob that as reigning champions our ST growth after winning the GF will be the lowest in SL history because it's joyless watching us and gaining new fans has become almost impossible

Id have thought that ST would if not exploded then significantly rose after the gf win,they didnt seem to though,no mind there was the WCC winthat had to have an the desired effect surely? yet it doesnt seem to have done,there are so many competing pasttimes nowadays the sport has to deliver both in terms of winning AND entertainment,the two are indivisible to me,the crowds seem at a flat figure unless theres plenty of giveaways such as the half marathon etc,i shudder to think at the "super" 8s and the pretty much meaningless games the side faces.

FB Escare
RW Manfredi/Marshall
RC Gelling
LC Gildart
LW Burgess
SO Williams
SH S.Tomkins/Woods
P Sutton
H Powell
P Flower
SR Bateman
SR Farrell
LF O'Loughlin

S Tautai (P)
S Tomkins/Wells (P) (LF) (SR)
S Ganson (Hooker)
S New Prop?

...I like this, with some cap space to strengthen other areas?

Have you forgotten about Club, replace Davies for Mashall as Davies is a right sided winger, who is Woods.

Josh Woods? Young half back?

I didn't forget, I just don't see Clubb, Isa or any of the other players above whats listed. Rotation/Squad players at best. The cap space needs to be used to bring in cover at centre?

When Clubb is fit, he's our best prop!

Personally, I disagree. None of our props on current form would get nowhere near the Cas, Leeds or even Hull team.

I think Tautai and Sutton are the most promising, by a country mile. Clubb is a squad/rotation player, no more.

We cannot have star quality running through 1-13, squad depth is massively important and with FPN departing we will have valuable cap space to strengthen.

Each to their own though. I understand that.

Clubb would be one of the first names on the team sheet if I was picking the team. Squad depth is key you're right about that but for me, he's in the 17 every week if he's fit.

For me too. I can't share the enthusiasm some here have for Sutton either; I don't think he's really kicked on, and still has too many errors in him.

He was actually most effective during his stint in the Second Row last year. As a Prop he's average at the moment.

Don't forget that he's 21. That's probably 7-10 years off a prop's peak. He is being asked to do a lot with little support with that in mind. Would probably benefit from a week off at some point but difficult when players keep dropping like flies and we are chasing dwindling hopes of a top 4 spot.

Sorry, but our props are the biggest problem. You've got to give Sutton some slack because of his age (props only peak in their late twenties) and he has shown promise. But the rest are average at best. Sorry, but Clubb is a squad player at best, as are the rest. Flower has gone backwards, Tautai blows hot and cold, as does FPN. We're crying out for a Cowie-esque hard-hitter with a decent offload.

And that's before you start talking about our hookers who are way too similar.

If it were my say, in the prop department for next year I would be looking to retain Tautai, Sutton, Bretherton and Clubb...releasing or moving along Flower, FPN and adding a new edge, versatile and fully fit prop forward....Wakefield absolutely lucked-out with Fifita! I have no clue about the NRL, I don't follow it enough but I am sure some of you guys who do could suggest maybe one or two?

I don't know how much Fifita is on, but he's definitely one that slipped through the net imo. Bit of a gamble, but less of a gamble than Mossop and better on his day than any of our props.

To get rid of both Mossop and Crosby created a problem that wasnt going to be filled by Bretherton or Naverrette or Sutton,at the moment at least,Clubb was injured at the time with his neck it was madness to release those two with proper cover for the prop position.