You say you have shown you have similar depth but you haven't, except by ignoring genuine options. I'm not saying Saints don't have options, you clearly do, but as the initial post you're replying to was about depth then it's equally clear that Saints don't have as great a depth either in terms of numbers or quality. By quality I mean options that could play without there being a significant drop in ability.

You discount Charnley, for example, as an out an out winger despite the fact he played for HKR exclusively at centre and was outstanding there. So much so they wanted to sign him in that position. You dismiss Tomkins as 'having done nothing since coming back from Union'. You do realise the circumstances surrounding that don't you? 3 years out of the game, injured when signed, no preseason etc. yet he still put in credible performances and made the England team! Are you also forgetting that he played the entire season prior to leaving as first choice centre including a Grand Final win? Please don't compare that to LMS who was shuffled into that position because of the injury to Hohaia and who wouldn't be considered a genuine centre in a month of Sundays! Bateman may well have only played one game last season, but he ripped you a new one from that position, outplaying both your first choice centres in the process. Even if we ignore him, Gildart, and everyone else you want to ignore, that leaves us 5 players who have played FIRST CHOICE centre at Superleague level. Add to this the fact that 3 of those players are full internationals compared to Saints's none and I think a comparison of relative depth is a little tenuous to say the least!

Who've I ignored though, genuinely? Burgess? I've gave my reasons for that, same reason I don't include Makinson. I've not discounted Charnley at all, I said he's a winger for me then asked whether he's played centre, while still including him during my list of comparing depth. You then go on to mention Tomkins, who spent a season at centre, so did Lance Hohaia in 07. Still counts doesn't it. Don't compare LMS, but then goes onto say Bateman counts as depth as he ripped us a new one in the single game he played there, okay then. LMS won a Grand Final playing centre, Bateman never. I went through the rest which you do kindly acknowledge.

Still, as you say, it's getting a bit boring and we'll agree to disagree. The only centres I'd take from you anyway are Sarginson for how he played for England in the Autumn and Gildart as a youth player with very high potential. Likewise you'd probably only take Percival from us. Oh, and obviously Dawson

No, I'm not talking about Burgess, Bateman, Gildart or anyone else as I clearly state. I'm solely talking about players who could play that position without any significant drop in quality. Outside your first 3 you have no one who has played first choice centre at Superleague level. You're fourth option has hardly played there at all and NEVER as first choice. In fact, he was playing championship rugby in July! after that there is no experience at all. How is that the same depth as the 5 options I have given you? It's not a p!ssing contest, merely a statement of fact. You're happy with your options, as you say, and that's fine. However that's not what you were replying to. You said you'd shown you have similar depth but you don't. It really is that simple.

Look, I'm not making an 'ours are better than yours' type argument here. That's down to personal opinion anyway at this stage of the 'season'. I'm merely correcting an inaccuracy in your post. Whether you choose absolute numbers who can play there or the number of players that have played there as their starting position you don't have the same depth. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a statement of fact.

At Warrington Bridge and Atkins have been allocated the 3 and 4 shirt but no surprise if Ratchford slots in there as a first choice. Also Gary Wheeler is in reserve whilst both Monaghan and Evans have previously switched from there wing positions to play at centre in Super League. From the second row we also have Grix when back from injury who has played a lot of Super League games at centre whilst Currie has also been selected at centre in the past. Beyond that we have Toby King who has already played first grade and was the stand-out centre in the recent academy series against the Aussies.

Admittedly biased but to be honest I think you'd find it difficult to argue against the experience at centre provided by Bridge, Atkins, Ratchford, Wheeler, Monaghan, Evans, Grix, Currie and King providing as good as if not better depth than Wigan have in the position.

Naming all those as PY has done for their possibilities at Wire they probably have more depth at centre than us but that is our "thinnest" position.
I think Wigan's is as good a squad as any and better than most. Us and Wire IMO have the strongest squads with the most depth, Saints have quality but not depth in the pivitol positions.
Looking at 1,6,7,9,& 13 then Wigan and Wire are better off than Saints. Saints don't have an U19 threatening Lomax at 1, Burns at 6, Walsh 7, Roby 9 although I don't think 13 is a position for someone from the U19s. Wigan and Wire have an abundence of talent for those postions both young and experienced.
Wigan's main advantage is pace. Wire, Saints., Leeds and Catalan have quality players but none with the pace of Wigan's squad.
Iain Thornley is a quality centre who through bad luck with injury has lost his place and shirt number to a player who when signed last year didn't have a position to hold down. Shows the competition for places when Sarginson can come from the defensive debacle at Cas to being an outstanding player in the England squad.

You're right we don't have a lad from the 19's threatening 1,6,7 and 9. We just have a World Cup winner instead.

1,6,7 and 9 World Cup winner, that must be son of superman.

No just one guy who can play all those positions quite comfortably

And one who the majority of your supporters would be more than happy to see the back of?

12 months ago perhaps. Not now. His first 2 years were poor but last year he was good and won the majority of fans over.

Regardless, he can still cover 1,6,7 and 9 comfortably.

He very average at best in all positions.
Probably one of your highest earners.
For a bits and pieces type of player?
Your having a laugh at our expense.
He adds nothing to SL but like many a bit player from the southern hemisphere takes out plenty.
I'd rather have a green 17 year old in the background rather than a grossly overpaid under performing guy who offers to play well in a multitude of positions but delivers in non.

I do find it fairly amusing the players being named to "play centre" and the tenuous links they have to it. In fact it's nothing short of ridiculous in some cases. The simple fact is we could pick up injuries to both our starting centres and replace them with 2 lads who have regularly and can be considered centres, it looks likely both potential back up centres will have been part of very successful trophy winning teams consistently playing in that position. If we pick up 3 injuries in the centre position we fall back to our youth players who in Gildart is a pretty strong position to be in.

Beyond that you can throw out all kinds of names.

Depth is not just about numbers it is about quality. You could argue Wire have a similar depth with 4 experienced centres but Atkins and Whealer in particular have a lot to prove, Ratchford is a very good player but if you play him at centre you lose his impact elsewhere, Bridge seems to be finding form again which I am pleased about as he is a player I really like to watch.

Chucking names in like Hohiah, Dawson and even throwing props in there is just a bit stupid. Sure they could move there if you pick up injuries during a game but you couldn't expect them to do a job week in week out in that position.

This thread shows how bored people can get during the off season. It's several pages of pure drivel, it's pointless, petty and nobody will ever win.

Bring on the start of the season so we have some rugby to talk about.

I take it from your post, you're happy about your lack of youngsters coming through who can play the pivotal positions. So, you would rather have an import who isn't good enough to get into your first 13, taking a large salary, than producing your own talent capable of pressuring your first team.

Also if you lose LH through injury and one of your starting players in those positions, then by your own admission you have no cover! I'd much rather have our exciting set of young players who between them can cover all the pivotal positions.

You say LH won over the fans last season, well going by how everyone on your board are wetting their pants over Burns, i don't think he's that highly regarded by your own fans. Yes i know you won LLS and GF, but your recruitment of Burns shows that the club know they had a lack of cover, just like Wigans recruitment of 3 props show to me we needed improvement in that area.

Overall, i don't think there was much between Wigan, Saints and Wire last season, any of the 3 could have won it, your Chairmans song and dance over not choosing them, showed that you were worried they could beat you. I don't see the winners of the GF coming from outside those 3 again.

Haha. I love reading over-reactions on these forums. My comment was quite clearly a light-hearted response to Father Ted's comment.

The only part of your post I agree with is the final sentence.

We do actually have some young kids coming through in most positions and have awarded squad numbers to a few this year. We have young half back Dave Hewitt who has represented England and is very highly rated. We also have Matty Fozard who played hooker at Widnes last year on Easter Monday.

The difference is you probably won't have heard their names mentioned as Saints fans aren't claiming they are the best young players in the game just yet. We'll leave that to you lot

Highly rated by whom? How many times have you seen him play? Why was he dropped from the England squad? You know he only got that mid season game because Shorrocks was injured don't you? In the Saints v Wigan games he was outplayed on every occasion. I have a feeling he will be another Gary Wheeler (hopefully without the injuries) i.e an outstanding junior player at the age of 12 - 16 but gets overtaken by other players after that age group. Saints fans have been claiming that he is one of the best young players for about three years!!

btw I do like the look of Rob Fairclough at Saints, I think he is a better prospect than Hewitt.

Oliver Gildart is a very good prospect, but that's all he is at the moment and time will tell. We've seen the likes of Shaun Ainscough, Joe Mellor, Tommy Lee, Jamie Foster, Steve Tyrer etc, etc all hyped up as the next big thing only to fall away for whatever reasons.

And as for Lance Hohaia "winning over the fans" I wonder how many will want to see his contract extended at the end of this season?

He is highly rated by the club, coaches and most fans who have seen him play that I have spoken to. I don't keep a tally of the 19's games I see I'm afraid otherwise I'd be happy to let you know. Saints fans have said he is one of the better young players at Saints. I've never read or heard anything along the lines of "best young half back in the game."

I'm glad you recognise Gildart is simply a very good prospect for now, and not the "best young centre in the game." That title would probably go to Sarginson with Percival after that.

As for Hohaia, it would all depend on length of contract and cost. At the moment he is on a large salary, too large for someone who will be a back up player. However he did play well last year and did win over the majority of fans. He will also be a useful squad player next year as he can cover a few different positions.

If he were to stay on for a year or two on a reduced contract then I think most Saints fans would be fine with that.

In what way has Atkins "a lot to prove"?

Atkins is a fully established Super League centre with international recognition. Gildart has never played Super League. Atkins is the one with something to prove, obviously.

Is reading something you struggle with? I do not class Gildart as one of our front line centres. I would anticipate he will pick up game time next year but it will be carefully selected. If we pick up 2 centre injuries we can still run with 2 experienced centres who have played in trophy winning successful teams. Gildart is not part of that equation and I doubt if we picked up 3 injuries in the centre that he would be considered a realistic long term option.

As for Atkins, given how poor he has been the last few seasons he had bags to prove. He is a player who seemed destined for a big career, he has become a very average player indeed and needs a big season to get back on track, he lacks the basic skills of a centre and unlikely he at his age will ever get them in my opinion. May be wrong but fairly sure he has been dropped for spells on a few occasions over the last few seasons by Smith due to his form.

So the best young centre in Super League is only 5th or 6th choice at Wigan? Weird that.

Where's this best young centre in Superleague come from?

Not sure. St.Pats? Judes?

Nicky Kiss labelled him thus in the second post on this thread.

So it's based on ONE person's opinion?

Roll on the start of the season.



What I will say is that he's one of the best young prospects I've seen in the last couple of years, and along with Turgut and King were impressive against the Aussies