Joe westerman managed it ok playing in a poor team so that prooves your theory wrong

I think Smith is a decent player but only at SL level, I just don't think he has the skill-set to shine on the international stage. I'm not singling him out btw and I didn't see anything in the 3 matches that would have had the Aussies purring.

I didn't slate the inclusion of Sarginson purely on the basis that I don't think Cudjoe or Shenton are up to international rugby either. IMO, he couldn't do any worse and I'm glad to say I thought he was excellent as I really think we're lacking in the centres and he's rightly claimed the shirt for the foreseeable future. FWIW, I genuinely believe that Wigan were a perfect example of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts last season. A lot of this down to some excellent coaching and a great defensive structure. Again IMO, there were better options than JT and Charnley but I believe they were given the nod over reputation and the team they play their club rugby for.

Seen a few quotes about him being "plucked from obscurity", let's not forget he was an England international when Wigan signed him.

Achieving your potential, which he undoubtedly has, is more mental than physical. Many have the physical gifts but not the mental strength. You have to be willing to go out of your comfort zone and go the extra mile.

I think this entire saga and the way it has played out shows that he does not have that mental strength and he is not willing to go out of his comfort zone.

I am sure he will have a solid career, I seriously doubt though he will trouble the International scene. Hope I am wrong as he certainly has the potential.

Was he?

To my knowledge he isn't even an England International now, so he would struggle to be then. He play in an international origin game (game 2 in 2012) but this is very different than being capped.

Some Wigan and Leeds players were pulled from the squad for game 2 and made 10 changes including making Jon Wilkin captain when he wasn't even in the team for game 1. Only 4 players played both games in the same position.

He only played when the first choice LF, from Wigan, was injured, nice try though.

He played for the Knights, he still hasn't got a full England cap. That would have come had he kept up his early season form which got him in the initial train-on squad IMO.

It is disrespectful to Salford and Hull to suggest that he won't still become a top-class player at either of those clubs, but this whole saga has definitely set his career back. A fully focussed Scott Taylor could have cemented himself as one of the top props in SL and finished the 2014 season playing for England. Prop is one position where there is no shortage of quality as far as England players go, and he's effectively back to where he was when he first joined Wigan, needing to establish himself and force his way into the set-up.

I'm still baffled as to how him ending up at Salford benefits him. They were obviously the only ones willing to pay a fee knowing he was off to Hull in 2016, but it still leaves him on the same side of the M62 as he would have been if he'd shown commitment to Wigan. Anyway, we'll move on - Dudson and Taylor out with Mossop, Patrick and Tautai coming in is a decent improvement in my book. Interested to see where Dudson will end up.

You genuinely thought Sarginson was the correct choice when the squad was announced? Rather than in hindsight I mean. If that's true then fair play to you but I can honestly say you are in a select group of 1 as I haven't seen or heard of a single example of any non Wigan fan thinking that was the correct option prior to the tournament.

I'll give you JT was a risk based on his relatively few games back in League. But who would your replacement have been? Ferres was worse, and the great hope Whitehead was shown to be completely out of his depth when he did get the chance. I'm not suggesting he isn't one for the future but this tournament wasn't played in the future. As it stands his defence was always suspect and, as you pointed out above, there is a world of difference between ripping it up in superleague and doing it on the International stage. You mentioned dream teamer, double winner and Lance todd trophy winner Smith as not being good enough in your opinion as well as leading try scorer for 2 of the last 3 seasons, Charnley. So who should have taken their places and why?

I've been assured dudson will also be heading to Salford.

It's amusing to see people suggest his career will automatically go downhill now he has left Wigan. Perhaps he should've stayed and seen his career go on an upward curve, like Ben Flower for example.

Really? Still obsessed with this?



Flower's career is on an upward curve since joining Wigan. He already has Grand Final and Challenge Cup winner's meals, has won the League Leaders and was a member of the double winning team of last year. In fact would you care to take a wager on who is going to win he most medals from here on in between the 2? I'd be happy to oblige...

Betting is not really my thing, however many seem to be forgetting Wigan, under the guidance of Messiah and future England/NRL coach Wane, actually won zilch last season.

Ben Flower was plucked from obscurity. He has gone on at such a young age to be one of best Props in SL.

I don't get your attempted point.

Yes, because I'm sure Flower really regrets signing for Wigan.

I didn't say I thought he was the correct choice... I basically said he couldn't do worse than Cudjoe or Shenton. If anything I was sitting on the fence and reserving judgment.

Back to Smith, I saw enough of him at Salford to make what I think is a reasonably informed judgment. He did nothing in a Salford shirt and before you say he was playing behind a beaten pack so was Chase last year yet he managed to singlehandedly win us 2 or 3 games. Smith just doesn't have the line breaking ability or pace required from an international half, neither is his kicking game exceptional. Both Brough and Brown are better players IMO. I'd have even rather tried a 6/7 combo of Tomkins & Widdup and brought Hardaker in at FB to give us more cutting edge in attack.

Charnley, while a good winger is a million miles behind Hall. From what I saw last year I'd have had Burgess in front of him.

.......

I'm delighted this guy has signed for us. Unfortunately u guys could mould him into the robot your team requires, but hopefully with a new environment and coach he can start to fulfil his potential. Not fussed about length of contract, am only bothered about next season

So far all we have heard on here is that his partner wanted to move back home but who knows? Perhaps its not so black and white (pardon the pun!).

Life is not always straight forward and the influence of family can be huge.

Good luck to him.

Sorry Stanley for being a bit dim, but who is this new coach you are referring to?

And once next season has gone you can go out and sign another team and then another and another and so on.
Eventually your 50 season ticket holders might get a game you never know

Yeah and it might just improve the game while we're at it, instead of the same old same old predictable results. That's why new fans arn't bothered because they want to see a a competitive league not a closed shop as it's been for 17 years.

You are not wrong there! 2004 to 2008 were quite interesting as a Wigan fan with the threat of relegation, the heaviest defeats in the clubs history, going against the spirit of the cap and finishing in 6th-8th in the league and making it to the GF semis.

and if I'm not wrong your fans were the best they've ever been in that period, it's the uncertainty of a result that gets people off their armchairs and to games.

It might improve the game for Salford but not the game in general and definitely won't improve Salford long term

Going off the NZ game:
Hall had the best centre in the tournament inside of him who gifted him a score, he still managed to bomb an easy finish and fumble for Nightingale's first.
I like Watkins but he is a winger's nightmare- the only ball Josh had was the cut-out pass from S'OL for the try and another from JT where he skinned Vatuvei but slipped near the FB. Manu's try came as a result of (Watkins?) getting blocked and leaving a two vs two, quite similar to Widdop running out of the line for Nightingale's second, although Hall did have enough cover not to come out.
Overall I thought Josh had much more of a threat to deal with and did much better.

Hall's a fantastic finisher with an unbelievable physique for returning the ball... but his defence isn't as good as Josh's and he doesn't score as many tries- so I'm really struggling with the "million miles" bit.
Also:
Hall isn't as fast.
Hall has less tattoos.
Hall has only slightly ridiculous hair.

But above all they're both stunning players and easily the best two for England. (And there is no way on earth Burgess was going to play in that game, look at what Manu did to the young Aussie in the final. Scary.)