Because you said this:




In the Exiles game Joel Tomkins broke through and ran to score a full length try.


You're not very good as this are you?

Ah. I forgot about that. So that is three clean breaks then by the England team.


The discussion wasn't about who made clean breaks though. I'm not on here for a dick measuring contest. It was about Jon Wilkin and what he brings to the England team. So yes, I AM 'good at this' but I can't account for people moving the goal posts.

I'm not Wilkins biggest fan by any means, but I think he had a very good season for Saints and must have been close to being their player of the season. The fact that Gareth Hock had his brain fart and Lockers was unavailable made him an automatic England choice IMO.

Getting back on track, I still don't like the idea of starting with a loose forward at stand off, and only one prop on the bench.

I was waiting for a bite off a Saints fan, I don't think you have got my point.

Wilkin is a decent SL player, he might tackle his heart out but so did Malcolm Alker. You say he has a good passing game and his kicking might get a bit wayward, that proves my point about him ar5ing around thinking he's Wally lewis and he's a 'cherry on the cake' type of player, yes very good in a team on top but he won't be driving the ball out of his own 20 and making yards as he also lacks size too.

Against Aus we need players like Ellis and Westwood playing second row like their lives depend on it, Wilkin is a decent player in SL but not International IMO, it's not Wigan bias as I wouldn't of had Joel Tomkins in before him after this last season where he has been sulking all season, maybe would have had Hock before him if he was a bit fitter.

It's not anti Saints either as I think Roby and Graham always step up to International level.

agreed

based on his season, I think Wilkin deserves his spot in the 17, i've been very impressed with him

And that comment proves my point about you not knowing what Wilkin contributes to a team. What a totally stupid thing to say.

Name one international game where he has a big difference (apart from the one clean break against the exiles).

I'm not saying he's crap, he does well in SL but he has never done anything at International level despite numerous chances.

IMO he isn't physical enough, he doesn't punch holes in defences nor does he hit hard enough in defence mainly due to his size.

Wilkin adds alot. His defence can be very intellegent to shut key players down, aswell as hard working.
He can also show nice lines of attack and good support as well as the talked about ball handling.

However, England are really up against it and I'm all for "Big is Beautiful" in test teams.
I'd have Carvell on the bench instead of Wilkin. I also think for test rugby Wilkin is a long way behind O'Loughlin, whereas at club level he gives him a run for his money. If Burgess was available he'd obviously be in there as well.

Wilkin will not discrace himself against anyone, but he wouldn't be my preference in these situations.

Really Rogues? Gaz Hock for England? I'm not sure if you'd have many people, even from this board, agreeing with you on that one.

On current form I wouldn't have Hock in, needs to be a bit more pro active in defence. Wilkin won't disgrace himself by any means and with him in the team we will compete but we won't win, if I were to play him it would be in a spoiling role at 13 or off the bench with his prime goal of shutting Lockyer, Marshall and Thurston down and niggling them all game, but for that we would need a good organising 7 which we haven't that's why I would play Sinfield so we can accomodate Chase and Widdop who both aren't organisers.

In fairness, Sinfield has played stand off pretty much all season (albeit with 13 on his back) and was the driving force behind Leeds winning the GF.

As far as one prop on the bench goes, McNamara mentioned last night at the 4 Nations Fans forum that he's comfortable with that given that he's got 3 props in the 17 whose time on the field is good in comparison to others - Graham, Peacock and, possibly to a lesser extent, Morley.

When Ben Westwood is added to the mix I think there's a decent argument to say that we've enough cover there.

Biggest problem i have with Sinfield at 6, is he does not posses that creative flair or to use the buzzword "that X-Fcator"

I do however think widdop would be a revelation playing of the back of our pack which is undoubtedly our biggest strength

I do hope i am proved wrong of course !

Whilst I agree, he does tick so many of the basic half back options that other players (such as Chase) don't, such as a great long kicking game. That he's a must for me. I'd rather have a Goulding or a Martyn, but we don't have that luxury.
People get carried away that he's really a loose forward, but even when he's named there for leeds, he basically played 1st receiver and used Burrow and McGuire as left and right pivot. Having Webb in as well, who also plays that 2nd receiver has meant that, rather than have too many cooks spoiling the broth, Burrow has been switched to impact hooker.

I'd go Sinfield and Widdop for the halves. Chase on the bench.

Widdop has to play 6 IMO, why bring him in if your not thinking of playing him. Against the French Sam, created 2 tries and saved a try. Fook all wrong with him when they took him off and he looked p...ed off to me, to bring Widdop on. Same old story for me, loose forward playing for GB @ 6. Now when we have a lad who has played at 6 for one of the best teams in the NRL all season, so we have him on the bench and take off the best FB in SL to accommodate him, We need all our best 13 players on the field, play Sinfield at 13, he can still organise.

Also Rob Burrows was close to MOM at Wembley, was MOM in the GF, changed the game when he came on at Warrington in play off, if anybody's in form, its him. Has he retired ?

Rob Burrow is injured.

Jon Wilkin at the top of his game has been seen out of his depth before at international level. He can do a job but that is about it.

Personally I would like to have seen Mossop in there. He has been arguably our best forward all season and in my opinion is a much better prop forward than Peacock. Plenty time for him yet though and is getting some valuable experience with the Knights.

Overall our pack is not as strong as it has been this time but our back line is much improved with the likes of Widdop, Reed, Tomkins coming through as established players.

I know hes not english but Rangi Chase is a good half back I just hope Kevin Sinfield compliments him.

Ultimately though we will only beat Wales and this is nothing to do with the ability of the team its to do with inept coach in charge.

I dont get carried away personally, however he his coming up against vastly superior players in lockyer and Marshall, than what he is used to week in week out.

Widdop has played amongst those players in the NRL and in Chase his off the cuff style will be a threat IMO of course

6.Widdop
7.Chase

Where's your long kicking game?

I don't believe the above have much of one between them. In order to beat teams that potentially out gun you, you need field position, even when kicking from your own half.

Sinfield at 13

Us playing percentages and basics against the Aussies isn't going to work IMO. They just hammer us hands down in that department and because one of their basics in putting pressure on the opposition kicker is that good even top draw long range kickers like Sinfield have struggled in the past.

We need to play to our strengths and looking at this side those are pace and individual flair. We have guys like Tomkins, Chase, Roby, Reed and Widdop that could open them up from deep and threaten them near their line. I don't think Sinfield does either and his long range kicking game will get swamped by a tireless Aussie defence.

4 big props added to a big, aggressive back row making room for the best looking backline we've had for years would be my tactics.

Take them on in a game of percentages and they'll kill us.

It's a shocking backline. Only Tomkins is world class. Admire your optimism though. Hope I'm wrong and we run the Aussies close, can't see anything other than a thrashing though.

Compared to others we've had recently it's vastly superior.

Guys like Reed, Chase and given an opportunity Widdop will add a lot. As we know out forwards are fine.

Against Australia our kicking game should be kick it dead to take out Billy Slaters kick returns or bomb him to death with a lot of pressure on him.

Either Roby or Heighington if he's 13 to get into Lockyer and Thurstons faces everytime they have the ball, on last tackle the first marker must sprint at the kicker.

On our kick returns Sam shouldn't trot over for the ball, pick it up, have a look around and spin it to a winger he should be sprinting to that ball and sprinting back as soon as, like Billy Slater does.

Keep the ball alive, offloads every chance we get, if we play 5 drives and a kick at any point we will get beat as Aus are too good a team to beat playing normal rugby.

I would play Widdop at 6 and Chase at 7 with Sinfield 13 doing the organising and kicking and jumping in at first receiver every now and again.

1 - Sam
2 - Hall (Prefer Charnley)
3 - Reed
4 - Yeaman
5 - Briscoe
6 - Widdop
7 - Chase
8 - Morley
9 - Roby
10 - Graham
11 - Ellis
12 - Heighington
13 - Sinfield

14 - Westwood (Prop)
15 - Carvell
16 - Bailey
17 - JJB

I would love us to go with

1. Sam Tomkins
2. Ryan Hall
3. Jack Reed
4. Kirk Yeaman
5. Tom Briscoe
6. Gareth Widdop
7. Rangi Chase
8. James Graham
9. James Roby
10. Jamie Peacock
11. Gareth Ellis
12. Ben Westwood
13. Chris Heightington

14. Kevin Sinfield
15. Jamie Jones Buchanan
16. Gareth Carvell
17. Adrian Morley

I'm just thinking how better that team would look with just Sean O'Loughlin, Sam Burgess and Ben Westwood in it.

Imo our only hope is to put 4 forwards on the bench and turn all the games into an arm wrestle.

Our backs, Sam excluded, are hopeless. Our forwards aren't that bad in comparison.

2 Ben Westwoods would scare the children and police horses of England



As for the side you name it's exactly as it should be but Macca won't go for it.