I have always preferred him in the halves. His 'off the cuff' runs are nothing new from the full-back position. He was doing that from the halves, whilst creating tries for the team as well. He is also actually a good defender in the line and from marker. He used to make 1-1 tackles regularly on people much bigger than him, he's more of a hunter in defence, full-back leaves him having to make more decisions and it leaves him more exposed.

On topic: Lomax was excellent.

Off topic: Wigan are playing with their best half at full back! Tomkins is already avery good player and moving him to fullback for a season or two may have been a good way of allowing him to play first team where he has a little more time and space. But his defensive full back play isn't good enough, he's too small for heavy one on one tackle to stop players close to the line, he often arrives just as an opposition player grounds the ball which perhaps questions his positional play, Richards sometimes moves to full back to take high kicks, and if he is made to work defensively (as on Sunday) it hinders his attack, which is usually very good and sometimes excellent.

He could be a fantastic half back...make him play there and learn that position.

All of that criticism of Sam is rubbish and you're just spouting myths that others do. He's made some quality one-on-one tackles this season, there is nothing wrong with his defence as a fullback. He's good under the high ball as well. Occassionally he gets caught out of position but that is expected after only being there one season. Pat goes to fullback after hes taken kick offs because it means he can just hang back and swap with Sam when they get the opportunity. A few teams this season have been able to shut him down (Hull FC home, Catalans, Wire, Saints) because the forwards have been dominated and the halves weren't able to get quality service out to him during set moves. My one criticism of him is that at the moment he seems unable to take a game by the scruff of the neck when we are on the back foot. But from the last season and a bit Sam has become head and shoulders the best fullback in the league, he's also easily our best option there internationally and shouldnt be moved from the no1 jersey anytime soon for club or country.

It’s easy to slag Deacon off and praise Lomax after this match. Invariably whichever pack gets on top then the 2 halves behind that dominating pack look better than the 2 behind the dominated pack. Having said that Lomax does look the part and I really rate him.

I do think Deacon’s time may well be at an end though. From what I’ve seen of Mellor in the reserves and on telly at Widnes, I’d definitely give him a go next season. Leave Sam at 1 for me.

Very few pivots ever can and even less at a young age. you get the occasional special player able to do so , Andrew Johns being one that comes to mind for me.

Lomax and roby were saints best players. V impressed by lomax.

Sam has benefitted from full back, but our plays have started to look a little laboured now and a team with a disciplined defence out wide - as saints had will make it hard to break down. Saying that he was still a whisker away from scoring twice which would have chjanged the game.

He's still making breaks, but as wire showed, if you are committed in cover defence then you always have a chance of stopping the try.

Deacon took the wrong option a numner of times, trying to run thru when he is slower than wellens. I think the cats game calls for SOL to go to 6 and sam to mix it between fb and halves to inject some pace.

Also thought soliola had a great game in defence - very aggressive and really knocked us back in attack early in the game.

That's sort of what I was getting at, Sam's only been playing fullback for one full season and my one major-ish criticism of him is that if the team around him aren't playing particularly well then he has gone missing, like Saints on Sunday. As he gets more experienced this could well be something he adds to his game.

Lomax is a bit like Deacon in his prime, class player, Gaskell i'm not quite 'getting' at the moment, saying that he does have great handling.

I'd say Lomax is more of a runner than Deacon ever was, closer to Long than Deacon. Gaskell has the potential to be a class act. He has pace, good hands a good kicking game and vision. He has a big frame and I think as he develops physically he will pose more of a threat to the line as a runner ala Pryce.

I know a few on this board are bashing Deacon but at times Saints have missed a Deacon like player with experience to get us round the park and a mature kicking game, I do wonder though if Deacon and Finch are a bit too similar

Lomax had a great game easily MOM IMHO followed closely by Roby who is best hooker in SL. They were playing behind a pack that had won the forward battle though with Graham and Puletua leading the way. Our pack need to step back up in the next two games to get the backs on the front foot.

Tomkins hardly goes missing when Wigan get beaten, if anything his game suffers due to him trying to take too much on himself, he has real desire to do well for the club and I can't say I have ever seen him hold back when Wigan are losing.

You not watching on Sunday?

In tight 50:50 games he has come up with something special (Hudds home last year, Wire QF, Hull away this season come to mind) but in games where we are under the cosh and 2nd best in every department this hasn't been the case. Not saying he isn't trying or doesn't have the desire to, just at the moment he needs quality service from the players inside him to come up with something special and he cant do it all on his own. Like I say it's only a minor criticism really. I'd say the only 2 players we've had at Wigan in the last decade who have been able to take the game by the scruff of the neck and almost look like they're playing teams on their own are Andy Farrell and Trent Barrett, 2 world class players.

I still think Sam is the best player in the league and the best British player we've had for some time.

I was watching thanks! But your arguments not that he went missing is it? You expect one player to win the game on their own.

Not win the game on his own, no. But produce some magic to lift the team, make a break, chip over the defence and regather, something like that. He wasn't able to do this because the forwards got battered and the pivots were shut down.

What I'm saying is maybe after a couple more years at fullback he'll be able to go, "right this game is mine" and lift the side from what seems like certain defeat, I believe he will be good enough. We saw in the WCC he wasn't able to produce his best and we've seen it for England against the Aussies and Kiwis.

Simply saying there's nothing wrong with his defence doesn't make it so. The first tackle he made where he pulled makinson into touch...it was touch and go around the head. If he hadn't gone as high as that, he would not have made the tackle. The first Wellens try: with better positioning and more size he should have been able to tackle Wellens and bring him down before the line but his size counts against him...lets not forget that is wellens is slower than your nan and yet Tomkiins still couldn't get close enough for an effective tackle.

Regarding England, Tomkins at fullback will simply be ignored by the australians and Kiwis when they are attacking as they will run over him should he be in the right position...undoubtedly, they will think differently about him when we are in possession. He is a fantastic prospect at half or stand off, so lets play him there.

Also think its unfair to expect him to bail you out each time it gets tough. Thought he tried lots of things on Sunday (kick over for free kick, trying to score himself, running well with the ball) and perhaps others should follow his example. He worked hard despite a knock to his shoulder just before half time that clearly affected him as he was less interested in the second half. In fact, he seems to take on too much: the terrific try saving tackle from Lomax should not have been an option had tomkins not tried to stretch out...if you look where he landed, the ball would have been easily grounded if he had stuck it under his ribs and just dived over.

Back to thread, Lomax was sensational in both attack and defence

I think this is where the game was won, in the half backs. They were quicker in getting the ball away and more alert in exploiting any gaps down the middle. Deacon had one of the worse games I,ve seen him play this season.

Deacs did have a poor game, he's been playing very well consistently this season (more so than last when he was injured for parts of it).

I've watched almost every game this year and have seen Sam produce some excellent one on one cover tackles, on forwards and backs. Wellens' try was nothing to do with Sam's positioning but a shocking missed tackle from Hansen and Deacon, Tomkins was pushing out wide and had to quickly step off his left foot and Wellens was diving over by the time he reached him. The fullback has to have confidence in the defence, he cant just loiter behind every contact in case there is a bust tackle.

I hope the aussies and kiwis do take that attitude to him tbh!

In the same way saying Sam is a good defender doesnt make it so, neither does making a list of what qualities a fullback should possess and saying Sam doesnt have them! I think this is where a lot of people's criticisms of him come from. Going they should take a high ball, he's not good at that...cover tackling, no...etc.

Everyone is blaming the halves, I saw very little support overall. Dummy runners were few and far between and options were limited, at times I felt like I was watching Wigan under Noble.

Hopefully it was just one of those games and we get back to it this week.

I actually - VERY - sarcastically shouted bring back Noble at one point as we played yet another drive up the middle in that first half.
It really was as poor as those days in attack

People are complaining about how badly our halves played but are missing the fact that the running off the ball was very poor. If players are not running the right lines at speed then there isn't much a half back can do. If they are doing that, which when we're not so tired we do, then players like Finch and Deacon are able to do a lot more.