Sometimes you just need to believe the evidence of your own eyes. It is patently obvious how good AW is as a prop. He's chosen not to play in the NRL but it's not for lack of offers - I doubt it is an exeggeration to say that every single NRL club would have wanted to sign him had he been available in recent years.

He and Thompson played together and Thompson is clearly a good prop, but he's never been a walking one man pack in the way that AW can be and has been. AW lost Thompson and then James Graham alongside him and if anything just got better and better.

And I quote:

"3) that Wigan have more average players so losing them probably makes less difference to them than saints losing world class players like Walmsley"

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the implication there is anything other than Wigan have average players and Saints have World class?

If you'd said "a world class player like Walmsley" then you could claim the above. You said "world class players". Plural. Capeesh?

On Wigan you insinuate that losing players wouldn't impact as they are average. If you'd said "Wigan losing some of their lesser players wouldn't impact as much as losing their best ones" then you'd have been right. It would have also been stating the obvious.

I've accused you of being disingenuous several times now and you continue to prove me right whilst protesting your innocence. Utterly ridiculous!

So let's be honest here for a change, shall we? We both know exactly what you meant.

I think you might be under valuing Thompson’s performances a little tbh. I thought he was absolutely outstanding for those couple of seasons before his exit.

My eyes tell me Walmsley is a brilliant superleague player and I’m agreeing, I think he’s world class but until there’s concrete proof there, I can’t be sure he’d nail the NRL or that he will dismantle the Aussies, Kiwis, Tongans etc in the World Cup. He’s certainly not done that in the past for England but his game has improved since then.

The packs in superleague are chalk and cheese with the NRL and as a poster who has criticised the likes of Wigan, with Brad Singleton and there overrated, under sized forwards, I’m sure you’d agree the test he’s getting here isn’t always the greatest.

James Roby would be a good comparison as a guy who also hasn’t tested himself down under but we will all absolutely agree he was at one point as World Class as they come. The difference? A few things really. Some fabulous GB/England performances, the same with the WCC and he also terrorised a superleague twice as strong as the one Walmsley is chewing up.

I'm starting to question whether you just want to read something into this or whether you are struggling with the words themselves.

Clue - focus on the world "more" in what I said. It's a relative term. It means that Saints have some average players but Wigan have more. If you disagree with that then fair enough, I'd be surprised if you did though. You don't need to try to look for my implication, it's literally there in black and white mate.

I agree, and AW is walking all over them in the way you would expect a world class prop to.



Roby was clearly a world class hooker in his prime and I didn't need to see him in a WCC game or England shirt to know it - again, evidence of your own eyes regarding his relative superiority was sufficient - perfect distribution, great decision making, plays 80 minutes and mises about one tackle a year. In the same way AW is clearly a world class prop (IMO) - the Saints v Roosters WCC game in 2020 is a good one to look at if you need to - immense and he's been at that level for a few years now - but really it's not necessary because it's just so obvious.

Sorry mate, but no. Your implication is clear. Otherwise you would have compared Saints losing Walmsley to Wigan losing Field. That would have been a debate worth having

Look, I've said it before that I think you are a good poster and, along with Stu and YG (as long as he hasn't spent the morning on RedVee before coming on) your contributions add to this board. I know it isn't easy being the lone dissenting voices so I, and I know others, value that you post. It makes for more varied and interesting discussions. The Barba one was the best I've had on these boards in years. It just needed a nice pub and a few pints!




Just own what you say and stop trying to pretend you meant something else. If you feel Saints are world class and Wigan are garbage that's fine. Gives us something to argue about. I know that's not what you said before you correct me. I'm just making a point.

I'll go with all that but I'll ask you one more question when it comes to the difference in 'World Class' performances playing in Superleague and how they may or may not translate to the NRL or International rugby.

We know Roby could do it anywhere, so what's your thoughts on Sam Tomkins?

Now if we're looking for a guy who terrorised super league defences, here is your man. The guy was unstoppable for about 4 seasons between 2010-2013. Now consider he was doing that to far better teams than Walmsley is facing (a hugely strong Leeds team, a strong Saints team, a Wire team light years in front of where they are now etc) and he then went to the NRL. I thought he did pretty well and again the supposed struggles were exaggerated but I presume with Tomkins, you trusted you eyes before he went and said he was World Class and you didn't need any absolute evidence to the contrary?

And I'll add again 'I think Walmsley is World Class' but you're quick to say he is but Bateman isn't. It's a funny old game.

I personally think Walmsley is world class but I don't believe it can be claimed yet. There's a difference between "thinking" and "being". Being needs proof and we simply don't have that yet. I hope the proof comes in the world cup though.

I LITERALLY did do that! I said "It’s all very well talking about taking Walmsley out of saints but on this seasons evidence you’d struggle to score a point without field and against Catalans you didn’t with him (in a game everyone on here was saying was an acid test and payback for last year)." You just skimmed over it because you seem more obsessed with creating some sort of implication behind what I said rather than just reading it.



Every conversation benefits from a nice pub and a few pints





I meant what I said and willl say it again - Wigan have MORE average players than Saints and therefore when you take half a dozen of the best players out of each you are less impacted because after one or two you are into players who aren't as good as the ones you take out of Saints. It's that simple.

I didn't say Field was average (I clearly referenced him as a threat and included him in the "best" players I took out of the Wigan team when making comparisons. I didn't say all Wigan's players were average. I DID say Wigan have MORE average players than Saints (which they do). I didn't say all Saints players were world class. I DID say Alex Walmsley was World Class (which he is).

I really don't see the controversy.

Basically and to sum it up - you're a Saints fan and as such some people have a blind spot and don't listen to what you're saying. It's the same argument from a season or so back when Singleton was lauded as the next Jamie Peacock by our fans.

We/Wigan do have more average players than Saints. It's ok to admit that.

MY thoughts are that Tomkins was world class with the ball and as a broken field runner and before injuries took a toll on his pace he was an incredible player - and definitely world class. I don't think he struggled that much in the NRL actually, he had some brilliant games where he looked every bit a world class player, but he did get impacted by injury (which is bad luck) and sometimes defence (which was always there to a degree - his defence was certainly never in the world class bracket but then there have been lots of players like that, like prime NRL Ben Barba who was also clearly world class).



I'm starting to think I'm speaking Chinese! I diidn't say this, I was very clear in making the sdistinction that my view is that Bateman hasn't been world class SINCE RETURNING TO WIGAN. And he hasn't! Do you disagree?

I also do think AW is further ahead in terms of comparison to his peers than Bateman was to his before leaving Wigan - and I thought Bateman was absolutely superb before and during his Canberra stint and he was certainly world class at Canberra where I think he hit a new level. It's just that he hasn't been anywhere near that since coming back.

I think you’re speaking English but if you say Bateman hasn’t been World class since coming back to Wigan and you think Walmsley is the only world class player on either side, what am I meant to think you mean?!

Your exact words at one point were ‘Wigan do not have any World class players’.

You should’ve said Bateman was, but isn’t at the minute, but could be, but he was never at Walmsleys level straight off the bat and we’d all have known where we stood



Oh and I agree on Tomkins by the way (although his defence is now much improved).

We're going round in circles mate. You LITERALLY didn't compare them in the post I was responding to. You also didn't say "our only world class player, Walmsley" or even "A world class player like Walmsley". I've quoted it just a couple of posts up. Deny it all you want, it's there in black and white. I'll leave that particular discussion there as it's going nowhere.

As for the actual thread discussion, you said we would miss our top players less than you would miss yours. Isn't that exactly what we've been saying?

Wow - this is hard work. You are meant to think I mean exactly what I said - that only AW is world class amongst these two sides. In the same way I'm not including Roby on the basis he was world class a few years ago, I'm not including Bateman on the basis that he was world class a few years ago. It's very simple



Maybe he will get back there, maybe he won't, maybe Knowles will, maybe he won't, maybe Dodd will, maybe he won't, maybe KPP will, maybe he won't. None of that changes that only AW is now.

Watch him got trampled on by Singleton on GF now

One thing we can both agree on



You said that maybe I thought you was speaking Chinese because I implied you’d said only Walmsley was World Class and not Bateman and then you come back implying only Walmsley is world class and not Bateman.

Did somebody say simple?!

I cant believe the amount of s***e in this thread. im glad the saints fans dont come on this forum much anymore

I didn’t think we’d rival the Covid one but we’re giving it a reet old crack

On Bateman, there's a lot of "since coming back" type arguments as if it's been years. It's ONE SEASON! He's been fine this year including winning MOM from centre in the last game. Has he put in "world class" performances so far this year? No. But neither has anyone else, including Walmsley. World class performances come in world class games and there hasn't been any of those in Superleague thus far this year.

What's causing it is the "I never said that" type arguments. It's clear what someone is getting at most of the time but, for some reason, it's become less about the principal and all about the exact wording. The YG "you said never" argument being the best example.

It's a shame really because I think opposition fans posting can add plenty to the discussion. Arguing semantics for their own sake, however, is just tedious.

Crazy thing is everyone broadly agrees. On this one Walmsley is world class but could cement it with a top World Cup. Bateman either is or very recently was World Class and he absolutely has proven that at the highest level. There currently are no other world class players on either side but Saints in general do have better players at this moment in time. They’re a top side and we need to try and catch them. The league in general is a very poor standard at the moment but hopefully Saints being as far clear as they are will force other teams to raise their standards.

And finally

-They’ve only had one game in four and a bit years with 5 first teamers missing (couldn’t resist)



I don’t think I’ve missed much in terms of the current lay of the land but it’s all opinion.

The bloke ran for 140 metres against a revved up Catalans pack in the first game (including several props missing from the team that nilled Wigan) - that was pretty much double any other prop



Tough crowd!

12 man catalans?

Good point - he probably made all his metres in the 8 minutes left in the game after Napa got sent off

....was that the only time they had 12 men?

And that was a top class superleague performance. If he does the same in the world cup against the best in the world that'll be world class.

Just for the record Bateman has run 100 plus metres several times this season including 158 on one occasion yet you said he's been nowhere near world class. Tough crowd indeed. Or should I say make your mind up?