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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Rogues does not. See my post above.
Patronising? Tell me where I am wrong.'"
I don't know how you want this all to play out. It's neigh impossible for SL clubs to sign top players at ths moment because of the strength of the NRL in Aus, and the salary cap over here,, so a big name replacement is pretty much out of the question. Forcing him to see out his contract is an option, but then you end up spending a massive chunk of your cap on a player who probably won't give 100%. Then in 3 years he leaves for free anyway. So what's the best we can do, if not signing a safe pair of hands to last a couple of years till Tierney/Hampshire is ready, then ploughing the money we get into trying to develop the next Tomkins? What would you do?
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| Quote ="Grimmy"I don't know how you want this all to play out. It's neigh impossible for SL clubs to sign top players at ths moment because of the strength of the NRL in Aus, and the salary cap over here,, so a big name replacement is pretty much out of the question. Forcing him to see out his contract is an option, but then you end up spending a massive chunk of your cap on a player who probably won't give 100%. Then in 3 years he leaves for free anyway. So what's the best we can do, if not signing a safe pair of hands to last a couple of years till Tierney/Hampshire is ready, then ploughing the money we get into trying to develop the next Tomkins? What would you do?'"
I sympathise with this argument, but the feeling among a lot of fans at present is that we are become a production line of top-drawer talent for other clubs.
I personally would draw the line at Josh Charnley.
I'd rather have a happy player giving his all for Wigan than anything else, but I could tolerate an unhappy player if it sent out the message that no-one need knock at our door until the object of their desire has only a year or so left on his contract.
We need to make a stand with Josh, I reckon. If it means his development is hampered and his career ruined as a result, and that we have to spend for three years on an uninterested player, it might be worth it if it makes it clear that our players MUST see out a significant chunk of their contracts before we will consider releasing them.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"I sympathise with this argument, but the feeling among a lot of fans at present is that we are become a production line of top-drawer talent for other clubs.
I personally would draw the line at Josh Charnley.
I'd rather have a happy player giving his all for Wigan than anything else, but I could tolerate an unhappy player if it sent out the message that no-one need knock at our door until the object of their desire has only a year or so left on his contract.
We need to make a stand with Josh, I reckon. If it means his development is hampered and his career ruined as a result, and that we have to spend for three years on an uninterested player, it might be worth it if it makes it clear that our players MUST see out a significant chunk of their contracts before we will consider releasing them.'"
Whilst I agree with the sentiment, would you tolerate an unhappy player whose "mistakes" cost games?
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Whilst I agree with the sentiment, would you tolerate an unhappy player whose "mistakes" cost games?'"
I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of him not being selected. That would certainly be my response if I was coach and the player in question was not trying.
You and I are both long enough in the tooth to remember when unhappy players used to get frozen out of the game. I hated all that, and I was proud that Wigan rarely indulged in it, but I honestly feel we're facing a crisis at present as never before, and Wigan seem to be bearing the brunt of it.
I hate the idea of seeing good players sulking on the sidelines, but I'm not sure we've got a choice in the matter. We can't go on developing and investing in great youth talent, only to see it blossom somewhere else.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"
Back in the early 1990s, British RL was a towering force. It's difficult to quantify how much ground we seem to have lost since then.'"
You mean Wigan were a force, maybe Leeds aside the majority of teams were part time (with a few full time pro's) . Because of winter rugby players from both countries could have guest stints so it looked a little rosier. The games been broke for a long time and when we have had money it's been frittered away, the gap is just bigger now because SL is poorer in general and the NRL is rolling in it. In addition to the extra $ floating around the global economy means the aussie $ is worth more so we have become even poorer without actually losing any money.
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| Quote ="No1 Saint"You mean Wigan were a force, maybe Leeds aside the majority of teams were part time (with a few full time pro's) . Because of winter rugby players from both countries could have guest stints so it looked a little rosier. The games been broke for a long time and when we have had money it's been frittered away, the gap is just bigger now because SL is poorer in general and the NRL is rolling in it. In addition to the extra $ floating around the global economy means the aussie $ is worth more so we have become even poorer without actually losing any money.'"
We also had a game full of household names, we ran the Aussies close in major competitions on more than one occasion ... and many of the best players in the world wanted to join us (regardless of the reasons, weak currencies, better pay and conditions, higher profile in the press, or whatever).
I've heard all this endless guff about Wigan being the only full-time team, ruining the game for everyone else because they were too good, too rich(LOL), too much a bunch of cheats, owned the RFL, yadda yadda, moan moan. Actually, Wigan only went full-time pro in 1994, which was after the time I'm talking about. When it all started in and around 1986, they didn't do anything that most other clubs in what was then the First Division couldn't also have done.
I don't disagree that the game has been mismanaged for years, and has been broke longer than we care to imagine, but I never felt as if we were on the verge of sinking back into amateurism back then. I certainly do now, and I don't think I'm the only one.
It comes to something when you're a week away from going to Wembley, and all anyone wants to talk about is how depressed they feel.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"We also had a game full of household names, we ran the Aussies close in major competitions on more than one occasion ... and many of the best players in the world wanted to join us (regardless of the reasons, weak currencies, better pay and conditions, higher profile in the press, or whatever).
I've heard all this endless guff about Wigan being the only full-time team, ruining the game for everyone else because they were too good, too rich(LOL), too much a bunch of cheats, owned the RFL, yadda yadda, moan moan. Actually, Wigan only went full-time pro in 1994, which was after the time I'm talking about. When it all started in and around 1986, they didn't do anything that most other clubs in what was then the First Division couldn't also have done.
I don't disagree that the game has been mismanaged for years, and has been broke longer than we care to imagine, but I never felt as if we were on the verge of sinking back into amateurism back then. I certainly do now, and I don't think I'm the only one.
It comes to something when you're a week away from going to Wembley, and all anyone wants to talk about is how depressed they feel.'"
I see your point and tbh in this instance I'm not having a dig re part time I'm just pointing out things outside of Wigan were pretty dire. What ever the reasons other clubs didn't follow Wigan's lead in 86 are don't matter , the only thing that does matter is they didn't and it took till 96 for everyone else to catch up and make RL in the UK interesting again. I'm not sure what can be done but if we want to stop the talent drain we'll need bucket loads of cash ,where are we going to get it as a game ??? I think part time players in 'top level' clubs may be back on the agenda
The state of the game at the moment over here is pretty bad but your all on a bit of a downer because your league form is nosediving Wigan are a club with very high expectations
,merely making a cup final is not enough , even winning it would not stop the feeling of disappointment if you don't have a real crack at the playoffs.
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"Whilst I agree with the sentiment, would you tolerate an unhappy player whose "mistakes" cost games?'"
There seems to always be a big assumption here that any player held to his contract would behave like a child of about six years of age.
If a player is held to his contract and plays like an idiot for the remainder of it NO ONE is going to assume it's because he is sulking.
It also ignores the fact that players who spit the dummy over contracts are not generally well thought of. Why wouldn't a player who breaks his contract with one club not do the same again?
I believe the consequences of holding a player to his contract are way over stated if they apply at all. A professional RL player won't get a new deal if he plays like sh !t or behaves like a prat for two or three years.
If the first player we did hold to his contract spat the dummy, it would be his loss not ours if we sat him on the sidelines. Unfortunately I don't think IL can resits the $$ signs to do it.
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| Quote ="DaveO"There seems to always be a big assumption here that any player held to his contract would behave like a child of about six years of age.
If a player is held to his contract and plays like an idiot for the remainder of it NO ONE is going to assume it's because he is sulking.
It also ignores the fact that players who spit the dummy over contracts are not generally well thought of. Why wouldn't a player who breaks his contract with one club not do the same again?
I believe the consequences of holding a player to his contract are way over stated if they apply at all. A professional RL player won't get a new deal if he plays like sh !t or behaves like a prat for two or three years.
If the first player we did hold to his contract spat the dummy, it would be his loss not ours if we sat him on the sidelines. Unfortunately I don't think IL can resits the $$ signs to do it.'"
It amazes me Dave that its only Wigan players now going to the NRL. It seems we have an owner who wants them to go. Only reason for that is to get a transfer fee.
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| Quote ="tank123"It amazes me Dave that its only Wigan players now going to the NRL. It seems we have an owner who wants them to go. Only reason for that is to get a transfer fee.'"
I can see little use for transfer fees unless the club must sell to remain solvent and if that is case we need a wealthier backer than IL and/or or a better business plan.
The thing is I get the impression that we [idon't[/i need to sell players to remain solvent so I just don't understand it.
Has IL been brainwashed by Wane into thinking anyone can be replaced by this years star U19 player? Even if he has why sell a class player? IL is a fan. He like me grew up watching class players not mid table mediocrity.
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| Quote ="DaveO"There seems to always be a big assumption here that any player held to his contract would behave like a child of about six years of age.
If a player is held to his contract and plays like an idiot for the remainder of it NO ONE is going to assume it's because he is sulking.
It also ignores the fact that players who spit the dummy over contracts are not generally well thought of. Why wouldn't a player who breaks his contract with one club not do the same again?
I believe the consequences of holding a player to his contract are way over stated if they apply at all. A professional RL player won't get a new deal if he plays like sh !t or behaves like a prat for two or three years.
If the first player we did hold to his contract spat the dummy, it would be his loss not ours if we sat him on the sidelines. Unfortunately I don't think IL can resits the $$ signs to do it.'"
In the games where 100% effort is needed. Can a player who is "unhappy" be relied upon to give more than 50%?
As for your bit in bold.......
Do you honestly believe that someone like Sam would NOT get a contract if he behaved in such a way? Honestly?
I don't like it, but you have to be pragmatic in this situation.
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| Quote ="DaveO"I can see little use for transfer fees unless the club must sell to remain solvent and if that is case we need a wealthier backer than IL and/or or a better business plan.
The thing is I get the impression that we [idon't[/i need to sell players to remain solvent so I just don't understand it.
Has IL been brainwashed by Wane into thinking anyone can be replaced by this years star U19 player? Even if he has why sell a class player? IL is a fan. He like me grew up watching class players not mid table mediocrity.'"
I have to agree with this.
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| IL sold his IT company for £19 million 18 months ago, how wealthy does he need to be??
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"In the games where 100% effort is needed. Can a player who is "unhappy" be relied upon to give more than 50%?'"
Why assume he is/would be unhappy? Such a player has a choice. Behave like a prat or get with the program.
You are suggesting a player who wants away but is told "no" will shaft his team mates. Not going to happen IMO. Can you imagine the stick he'd have to put up with if he did?
Quote As for your bit in bold.......
Do you honestly believe that someone like Sam would NOT get a contract if he behaved in such a way? Honestly?
.'"
See above.
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| Quote ="Dougy"IL sold his IT company for £19 million 18 months ago, how wealthy does he need to be??'"
About 10 times more than that would be a good start. DW sold JJB for something like £186m.
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| His other club - Oxford United FC - are haemorrhaging money, £750k loss last year and they expect another £650k loss this year. He's invested countless millions (he says) into that club with little reward.
Also quite amusingly, they recently announced one of Lenagan's companies would be their home shirt sponsor this season...
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| Quote ="DaveO"Why assume he is/would be unhappy? Such a player has a choice. Behave like a prat or get with the program.
You are suggesting a player who wants away but is told "no" will shaft his team mates. Not going to happen IMO. Can you imagine the stick he'd have to put up with if he did?
See above.'"
Is that a yes or a no?
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| Taken from Sky Sports..
Quote Sam Tomkins says he has no plans on leaving Wigan after Saturday's Challenge Cup final against Hull FC at Wembley.
The free-flowing England full-back, who made his return at the weekend following after an injury-hit summer, has long been linked with a move to New Zealand or Australia.
Last season's Man of Steel signed a bumper five-year contract in 2011, but speculation surrounding his future has intensified ahead of this weekend's final.
Asked if the London showpiece could be his last in a Wigan shirt, Tomkins told Sky Sports News: "Certainly not. We've got the rest of the Super League season to go and whatever happens after that I'll be fine.
"For the time being I've not signed any contracts anywhere and I'm firmly concentrating on winning the Challenge Cup with Wigan this weekend and then the Grand Final at the start of October."
Struggles
Wigan are going through a worrying loss of form after suffering a fifth defeat in seven league matches against Catalan Dragons at the weekend.
But the 24-year-old said: "We've had a few off performances recently, but we've put ourselves in a good position throughout the year with so many wins. We're sat third in the table which with the new structure of the play-off means it's not too bad so long as you get in that top four.
"There's two big trophies up for grabs with the Grand Final and the Challenge Cup and it'll be nice to finish top of the league with the League Leaders' Shield, but it's not the most important thing for us.
"We're in with a shot to take one of the trophies this weekend and we've put ourselves in a decent position to get the Grand Final as well.
"It was good to get 80 minutes under my belt (against Catalan). It's been a few frustrating weeks leading up to this weekend just gone. I'm 100% fit now and although injuries are never too good but the timing of it was not too bad and I'll be ready for the weekend."
'"
bye at the end of the season
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| I've just been on the Sky Sports app and read the headline 'Tomkins planning Wigan stay' and I couldnt wait to click in to it.
Turns out it was a load of nonsense obviously written by somebody without the first clue of what's going on. It mentions how Saturday won't be his last game for us! When was that ever an issue?
It's as clear as it can be without it being confirmed he's gone though.
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| the thing that is p155ing me off about all this is that its twice now over the last few weeks that Sam has said ' i havent signed any contract yet'. well yes you have you have Sam, you signed a deal with Wigan.
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| Quote ="lothlorian"the thing that is p155ing me off about all this is that its twice now over the last few weeks that Sam has said ' i havent signed any contract yet'. well yes you have you have Sam, you signed a deal with Wigan.'"
Exactly what I was thinking.
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| Quote ="lothlorian"the thing that is p155ing me off about all this is that its twice now over the last few weeks that Sam has said ' i havent signed any contract yet'. well yes you have you have Sam, you signed a deal with Wigan.'"
Spot on pity the muppets who ask the questions don't point out the fact to him
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| "Asked if the London showpiece could be his last in a Wigan shirt, Tomkins told Sky Sports News: "Certainly not. We've got the rest of the Super League season to go and whatever happens after that I'll be fine."
Sounds a bit odd?
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| Quote ="Edenmain""Asked if the London showpiece could be his last in a Wigan shirt, Tomkins told Sky Sports News: "Certainly not. We've got the rest of the Super League season to go and whatever happens after that I'll be fine."
Sounds a bit odd?'"
Nah only person who does not think he is going to NZW next season is him Everyone knows what is happening. If he is telling the truth that he has not signed a contract for them yet. That only means that he has not signed it but he has agreed one.
Either IL is stringing NZW along in an attempt to boost the cap for Sam or IL does not want it announced until we have either won the CC or he has a player in place to replace him. IL has a bad habit of behaving like Omar Baba from Come fly with me. Will give the bad news quietly and thinks no one has noticed it whilst blowing his trumpet at Sam's replacement like we got the better out of the deal. Which ever way you look at it someone is taking the fans for mugs and thats never a good idea.
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| For what it`s worth there is a rumour down under that Queensland Cowboys full back Matt Bowen is joining Wigan next season on a 2 year deal.
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