Now now, let's cut out the personal insults. The season hasn't even started yet.


As for the rest of your post. Well, do I really need to point out how naive it is?

Surely it's a recognition that Lockers game (35 tackles a match and in the thick of it) means he can't be doing the captains job as well. This is something I have said time and again every time the debate over the captaincy has arisen.



I think it's designed this way because of what goes on on-field i.e. Lockers may well be too knackered to give the direction required at times and is a recognition that "leading by example" isn't enough (something else I have always maintained).

If you want a negative spin then Maquire decided Lockers wasn't the best choice for captain but it's a face saving exercise inspired by IL!



Dave

In my opinion no, I would prefer O'Loughlin as captain, I mean he has his faults (hard for refs to work with, doesn't fire the team up much) but he's a class, committed player, a Wigan lad and the players seem to respect him but it would be boring to not discuss captaincy, or anything on the basis of 'coaches know best'.

Totally agree. You can end most discussions on here by saying coaches know best so that ought to be banned as a point made in a discussion

.

I can see where people are coming from when they say he has captained teams at every level but surely the only level that matters is how he does the job in SL?

The fact he was a schoolboy captain is surely completely irrelevant? For all we know he could have got the captaincy back then because his Dad was mates with the teacher! It probably wasn't why he got it but the point is being captain of junior sides is no guarantee you can hack it doing the job as an adult. I am sure several other of the squad captained junior sides as well. Many of the best youngsters who go on to professional careers probably naturally gravitate to be the top player in their junior sides and end up captain as a result. This doesn't mean they can do the job at the top level. It doesn't mean they can't either but it just isn't relevant IMO.

Dave

i tend to think that we will be playing at your alternate venue, Widnes, rather than Leigh, for those 4 or 5 games - although I hope they show a bit of ambition and take at least one game to Liverpool.

exactly: its natural that in junior teams, the best player becomes captain regardless of actual captaincy suitability.

In O'Loughlin's case, his relationship to Andy Farrell was also probably a reason why his junior coaches selected him as captain.

They are brother-in-law arn't they?? If thats the case, how young was he when he married into the family!!

So, John Kear (England A coach) Mike Gregory, Dennis Betts, Ian Millward, Brian Noble and Mike Maguire only picked him as captain because he is Andy Farrells brother in law.



Is that why Cunningham is captain at Saints?

Nah. Making Cunningham captain at Saints, even though he sits out half of each game, was probably yet another part of that complex deal struck to ensure that we'd never again hear statements from him to the effect that he needed to find a way to get out of Rugby League.

Does anyone think that quote will be engraved on his statue? Or was his statue also part of the deal?

I'm not sure where you think the insult is. If it was my saying "a nobody on the internet" to differentiate from a whole host of professional coaches, please explain how this was an insult...or indeed, inaccurate!

As for the second part. Yes, please point out the naivety without using your old fallback of "he would say that" whenever the evidence doesn't support you. I'd be very interested indeed.

Dave, we've had many conversations over the years about the captaincy issue, so I'm well aware of your stance. However I think that saying this proves, for example, that "leading by example isn't enough" is stretching the point a little, don't you think? It's one of many possible theories that could be put forward, however it has no evidencial support and is in fact contrary to what is coming out of the club. Please don't fall to BK's standards of only believing something if it supports your argument and anything that doesn't is simply the person (or club) lying.

I didnt realise that John Kear, Mike Gregory, Dennis Betts, Ian Millward, Brian Noble and Mike Maguire were all coaches of junior teams that O'Loughlin played for.

...and I didnt even know that KC was Andy Farrell's brother in law.

yeh, that wasnt one of his best moments i'm afraid - and its the one reason why I dont class him as a "legend" and I dont think there should be a statue in his honour.

given half a chance, he would have been down the road to Union (with Radlinski, to be fair) - but he (they) took the cash and stayed - and SL as a whole benefited from having 2 players at the top of their game playing in the competition.

I simply cannot believe that nobody has noticed the fact that Melbourne Storm had a very similar leadership group with the likes of Scott Hill, Cam Smith, Kidwell etc for about 2 or 3 years before Cameron Smith emerged as the full time leader and captain of the side and club. This seems to have worked very well both in developing team responsibilty and in grooming Smith to do a superb job without having been thrust into a full time role at 21.

It would be good if one of the younger players was included in this scheme such as sam tomkins or harrison hansen to build for the future.

They weren't. They were mostly his coaches at senior level. That's what makes the whole 'it doesn't matter if he was captain at junior level' argument so monumentally ridiculous and ill informed. As an aside, he was captain at junior level as well. Go figure!

He was selected as captain because of highly rated he was and how well respected he was by the other players.

I know a couple of lads who played with him for town teams and acadamy sides etc and they speak very very highly of him. They don't only rate him as a player but also as a person.

Well the old adage goes if it aint broke don't fix it. Well Maquire has decided to "fix" (change) the captaincy and in my opinion he will have done it for a reason and this message board is about speculating on what happens at the club isn't it, such as why the coach does what he does.

As you know one of the issues I have with Lockers captaincy is he is not a commanding figure on the pitch and puts his head down and gets on with his playing duties. I think that is a problem particularly when the chips are down so could very well be something that influenced Maquire to review the position in the first place.

That said I actually think the most likely reason for having five captains is what was posted by Wigan/Leeds/Andy way back in the thread and I quote "I'm taking this to mean Maguire has decided there isn't anyone in the team with the necessary leadership skills required to do the job on their own. " and that includes Lockers.

Of course W/L/A doesn't know that for sure either



Got to say though one of the things that has made me smile reading this thread is to see some of the Lockers fans playing down the role of captaincy now this has happened. It's suddenly not that important a job after all!

As to what is coming out of the club it includes Lockers agreeing to this change. I wonder what the situation would be if he had said no to the suggestion? My guess is it would have happened anyway so what was he going to do or say?

Dave

Fine but are these lads now pro RL players? The point I was making is the best young players end up as captains of junior sides because they are the best players and I expect several of our current first team squad have captained junior sides as well.

They can end up as captain for other reasons as well of course.....

Dave

Hang on. People use the fact he captained junior sides as proof he is a natural leader and all we are pointing out captaining junior and senior sides is like chalk and cheese.

If anything is ridiculous it is using his captaincy of junior sides to back up him having the job as a professional player. It's a completely different ball game.

As to Millward and the rest of his Wigan coaches choosing him as captain Maquire is the first with some balls to do something about it. One of the big problems we have had at this club recently is when a new coach arrived that was the only thing that changed! They carried on overseeing a club as described by Radlinski and nothing fundamental changed. The status quo was maintained and we went from one average season to the next.

I therefore see this captaincy move as just part of the long overdue revolution the club needed to give it the kick up the backside so desperately required.

Dave

Dave,
Would you agree that John Kear, Mike Gregory, Dennis Betts, Ian Millward, Brian Noble and Mike Maguire were all respected "senior coaches" and they picked O'Loughlin as a senior side captain?

Quote ="arcticchris"I simply cannot believe that nobody has noticed the fact that Melbourne Storm had a very similar leadership group with the likes of Scott Hill, Cam Smith, Kidwell etc for about 2 or 3 years before Cameron Smith emerged as the full time leader and captain of the side and club. This seems to have worked very well both in developing team responsibilty and in grooming Smith to do a superb job without having been thrust into a full time role at 21. It would be good if one of the younger players was included in this scheme such as sam tomkins or harrison hansen to build for the future.'" They still have a leadership group www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 5818579631 paragraph 3

Quote ="arcticchris"I simply cannot believe that nobody has noticed the fact that Melbourne Storm had a very similar leadership group with the likes of Scott Hill, Cam Smith, Kidwell etc for about 2 or 3 years before Cameron Smith emerged as the full time leader and captain of the side and club. This seems to have worked very well both in developing team responsibilty and in grooming Smith to do a superb job without having been thrust into a full time role at 21. It would be good if one of the younger players was included in this scheme such as sam tomkins or harrison hansen to build for the future.'" They still have a leadership group www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 5818579631 paragraph 3

No.

Since when was Milllward respected coach round here? I am still convinced he appointed Lockers for the headlines of appointing a young captain. A deliberately controversial move in my opinion that got the headlines he wanted.

Ditto Betts - when was he considered a respected coach? He was never officially head coach anyway. Scraping the barrel with this one aren't you?

Kear? Many don't rate him and would never want him as a Wigan coach but that wasn't as a club captain either. Strange how he becomes a respected coach because he appointed Lockers to England A or whatever it was having left us under a bit of a cloud I seem to recall.

Maquire - he is the one who has just asked O'Loughlin to do the job part time so this is not what I'd call a ringing endorsement.

Noble would stick with a dead duck if it had a number 1 through 17 on its back so I would never envisage such a change coming from him in a million years even if Lockers lost a leg. Loyalty first, common sense second should be Nobles motto. No recommendation IMO.

That leaves Mike Gregory in your list and it wasn't him who gave him the Wigan job so I assume you mean he chose him as captain for one of the junior England sides or similar which doesn't count IMO - it being a junior side as discussed previously. Gregory also wasn't a senior coach when he appointed Lockers as captain.

Dave

No He didn't.He gave Locky the choice.Locky chose this new way

All the coaches I named have worked with O'Loughlin on a full time basis, three have coached at representative level, yet we have a few "fans" who see him at most 30 times a season (and the ones who protesteth most probably don't see him that much) telling all and sundry that he is not a captain.

I beggars belief.

How many of our experts will be at Wakefield, Leigh and Warrington?

As I said previously, the five captain thing (one of whom is O'Loughlin) may or may not work. I am not losing any sleep over it.

Roll on Sunday.

Category A fans I reckon.