Hock does more damge then any of them.

Birds a 6 by the way or a loose forward at a push.

watched him a few times on tele this season doesn't do half the work Hock does.

Maybe with a full season under his belt people will see a devasting Pelutua cos the bloke is huge but for me Hock would be the first on my team sheet in any team.

Hock is a destructive player on his day, however he is a liability when he has an off-day.

For Friday night only, I hope it is the latter!

If he is consistent for the remainder of the season, he should be a shoe-in to the England team, no worries.

bird is a second rower mate. thats where he has always played 99% of his rugby and is his best position. bird played at 6 because of injuries at the sharks and in the nsw squad. i think he played 6 for oz once when lockyer was injured. i think JT was injuried too so the halves where prince and bird(i could be wrong). in the origin bird had one good game at 6 and 2 shockers. when the halves are fit he will play in the backrow for the dragons too.

back on topic i dont think hock does more damage than the others mentioned. a previous poster said hock is the best attacking british second rower? that surley has to be wilkin. i would love to see hock do the tactical kicking for wigan or play at 6 for a few games or even in the centres like other backrowers do for other clubs.

as wigan fans i understand why your gonna choose hock over others. espically with your run of form. personally im not a fan(you may have picked that up lol) but each to their own

If you think Wilkin is the best British SR then I'm afraid this debate is over

why when he is an out and out second row and we don't need him to start tactical kicking and play in the centres we have enough cover for that.

glad you said that because i actually thought i had was seeing things.

Hocks not a playmaker type like Wilkin/Sinfield/O'Loughlin etc so he's never going to be asked to be doing tactical kicking or passing.

He's an out and out second row runner and of that type he's easily the best in Engalnd at the minute. The amount of damage he doesn wheather it be a break, half break, try or just taking energy out of the oppositions defence is invaluble.

Is he a better player then Bird or Wilkin? tough to say because he's a totally different type of player but would i swap them for him? not in a million years.

Ali and Solamona are always crocked and Solomonas attitude stinks IMO. Pauleta is a cracking player but give me hock anyday.

as for bird you really are clutching at straws as Nicky kiss has already mentioned he is a 6 add to that he has done nowt so far over here, looks about 2 stone over weight.

i also said "attacking" 2nd row. ellis is a monster in defence, but not so much in attack.

givin any of the above there i would not swap him for any of them


and finally WILKIN???????????????

dont make me laugh. puts a few kicks in and hightackles the smallest blokes on the park. a genuine cheapshot mearchant. dont get me wrong Hock likes the ruff stuff, however he does it to the big blokes too.

i would have Hock then maybe JJB before that lot

wilkin is as fast as hock if not faster, has a better long and short passing game and a better long and short kicking game!! their defence is about the same.

how can hock be a better attacking second rower than wilkin? is hock a better battering ram and tackle braker? then i would say yes.

but if we are talking a true attacking back rower its not like hock's skills arnt as good as wilkin's the facts are hock simply doesnt have the skill set wilkin does. fact

You can't compare Hock and Wilkin mate............it's pointless.

It's like comparing Tim Smith and Rob Burrow, they're games are totally different.

Compare Wilkin and O'Loughlin if you want.

i can totally agree with some of that

i dont its gaz ellis by a mile

yeah!! tim smith has got better and burrow has gone backwards(not through lack of effort mind)

you have some serious anti saint issues going on that cloud your ability to discuss wilkin in a true light. and your so wrong about bird been a 6 its unreal, he looks 2 stone over weight because he's a forward. or maybe too many business class dinners

I mean in terms of they're actual game skills and not how good they are.

Smith is an organiser- Burrow is a runner

Hock is an offloading runner- Wilkin is a playmaking grafter

People opinions on who's better will differ but alot depends on what you side needs at that time.

We have O'Loughlin to play the Wilkin role, Bailey to play the Gaz Ellis role which makes Hock just perfect for us.

i can see what your saying. i know it wasnt you mate but it wasnt me either who said hock was the best bristish backrower and the best attacking back rower in the comp. as you have pointed out their is more than one way to skin a cat in our game.

all that bread and water he has comming up will soon sort that out.

and yes i do have some anti saints issues. i hate the bloody lot of you, especialy the ones who feel the need to come on here to offer their "points of view". i am a wigan fan it goes with the terittory



but at the same time i recognise a class act when i see one (see my comment about Pauletua above) but wilkin!!! people only like him because of his articulate (ie. ghost written) blog on the BBC website and because eddie and ray french rave on about him all the time.

what would i care im a leeds fan

no you never its true, it was me.

you did however disagree with my point and then LIST a few of you own which means that you agreed there was such a thing as the "best". that continued until Nicky kiss came up with the reasons you could not have a definative "best" 2nd rower in the game that you changed your tune and started to use somone elses argument in response to mine!!!

have courage in your own convictions !!!!!

Wilkin seems a bit like a cherry on top, he's alright when the team plays well, but he's useless when needed to dig in and fight to win a game. Like how in the grand finals and his test appearances he has been invisible but is good in the challenge cup against weak opposition when saints are already clearly on top.

then what the heck are you doing on here?

Perfect assessment, the same goes for Pryce and Martyn was the same.

read my posts i did!! i clearly said the best british backrower in the game is gas ellis.

so i was as clear as day about my convictions. as for the others i just pointed out a handful of players who imo are just as dangerous if not more so when attacking the oposition line than hock

poor attemp at a blow out! read the thread before you jump the gun

damn right!! hide and seek champ 07,08!!