No because the two things are not mutually dependent.

You are missing the point.

The finishing position is irrelevant (assuming a top 8 finish). It's the state and form of the team at that particular point in time that is the issue.

Really, the game is either meaningless or has meaning. It's nothing like your random analogy, the point lost/gained yesterday could mean a difference in position come the end of the season, imagine if it's the difference between 1st and 2nd, I know which I would prefer regardless of the devaluation of the LLS.

So, points don't matter against the top teams. Assuming the top 6 I guess that's 10-12 points in 2012 that could have been thrown away rather than compete for them putting Wigan in 6th at best.

I would much rather see the team come out of the blocks winning games as this then allows for a bad patch, or a less frantic build up to the end of the season.

I think there's a good few who take position for granted as in their minds Wigan are so much better than the rest, but it doesn't take much to see doom and gloom around the props/half backs/centre and not that long ago doubt that Wigan would do well at all this season.

As far as the "doesn't matter where you finish", what's been proven over the last 10 years is that top two or fifth are the places to be. Not competing isn't going to magically deliver these places.

Even the top 6 system we had where 1st and 2nd got a week off then played each other in the semi final to get to the final, with the losers still getting a chance the week after. Back then, it was a challenge for even 3rd to get the the final, let alone win it!! Now, it's easier to get to the final from 5th than 1st or 2nd.

See my post immediately above this.

Saying games are meaningless is a crap excuse for not attending.

Do you really think if the premiership had play offs that liverpool And Manchester United fans would say "ah well, doesn't matter if they beat us, we"ll play em again at the end of the season". Where has the passion and rivalry gone in this sport at all!!! As long as 17 lads represent Wigan against 17 lads representing Warrington/saints/leeds IT MATTERS.

I'd go to this game if we were in 13th and 14th respectively, last game of the season with nothing riding on it and still look forward to it like i did on Friday.

Excellent. Thanks for that information, I'm pleased for you.

Now what exactly does it have to do with the topic?

For what exactly? It's very clear that 3rd/4th positions are a disadvantage as the teams there are immediately into playing the top two away. Below 5th is also a disadvantage, 5th has the advantage of home against the weakest of the top 8 and then onto playing the top 4 after they have just had a few battles.

Do you really think a really well prepared 6th-8th team would defeat a similarly well prepared top two?

How would not bothering in the first few games of the season impact the teams ramp up to the GF? With the exception of the 5th place finish which seems to carry an advantage over 3rd/4th the placing in the tables there is clear advantage to completing the season higher up the rankings:

2012 - 2nd v 5th
2011 - 3rd v 5th
2010 - 1st v 2nd
2009 - 1st v 2nd

Looking at the protagonists for the history of the eight team system would suggest that entry to the GF is best when in 2nd place, then first and fifth. Winning the GF is a tie between the first place team and the fifth place team, oh and the first placed team get the LLS which is somewhat devalued but worth more than not getting it.

So, on the whole from what the results and rewards are a placement of first in the league has an equal change of a GF win as fifth but also carries the additional prize of the LLS.

Are you being obtuse on purpose?

Agreeing with the comment above, we all have answers to making the game better but the RFL don't listen, if they did then you'll get the NRL sticking their oar in.

The simple answer as we all know is reduce the playoffs, reward 1&2 with a semi final game for the final with the loser playing in the other semi.
Give the league leaders regardless of a GF win a place in a 4 team WCC. All that implemented and 99% of us would shut up BUT will the RFL listen to us the simple fans....

Sorry mate - You're talking crap.
















(But only because it makes so much sense to us fans that the RFL couldn't see it if it was biting Nigel Wood in the ass)

I'm not really missing the point. What this all boils down to is how do you get to the end of the season in the best 'state and form'?

Those who claim that league points don't matter so much are basically advocating that Wigan throw matches. Like it or not, that is what they are saying. You can spin it as 'rotating resources' - which all good clubs should do anyway - but if, by that, you mean playing lots of club juniors in fixtures that you earmark as easy, because you want to rest seniors, you are risking - as Shaun Wane did at Widnes last year - losing games that you would normally win. But then that doesn't matter because league fixtures are unimportant.

I can't agree.

There are other factors at play here. 'Getting on a roll' and 'losing can become a habit' are phrases we don't seem to hear very much these days, possibly because they pose a counterargument to this notion that league games are unimportant. Wigan have a very young side this year. Can we guarantee that if they lose a couple of matches it won't affect their confidence? That they won't lose a lot more matches? That they won't finish, not fourth or fifth, but out of the top eight altogether? (Please don't scoff at that notion - on paper Ian Millward's side was good enough to make the play-offs, but events conspired to send it to the bottom of the table).

It's a big assumption that Wigan failed to make Old Trafford because they tired themselves out trying to win every league fixture. What about Tommy Leuluai's injury? Was he ever the same for us again? What about Brett Finch and Jeff Lima? - as soon as they got their new deals sorted out, they were on the boat. That was three key players who were no-shows for us at the business end of the season. We also learned that both Hock and Sam Tomkins were carrying injuries.

People point to Warrington and level the same argument - high-flyers in the league but losers in the play-offs, must have been tired. And yet Wire have a long track record of choking in the play-offs. In addition, they've won the Challenge Cup three times in the last four years. We know from our own experience in 2011 that winning the Cup makes the play-offs seem a little less important.

It would be a very dangerous policy to assume that 'not trying to win certain games' - because that is what this boils down to - is the way to conserve energy for the play-offs. You might not even make the play-offs, or if you do you might be in the wrong state of mind. You might still have lost players to injury, because not trying very hard never equates to everyone staying fit and well.

We've had 3 years under the top 8 and in those 3 the team in 5th have made the semi final without earning it in the manner that a 5th placed finish should require. Go back to the top 5 or even the top 6 imo.

But thats the point. These games DO matter as the teams are jockeying for what position they will be in come the end of the qualifying rounds!

Quote ="django"But thats the point. These games DO matter as the teams are jockeying for what position they will be in come the end of the qualifying rounds!'" Looks like Leeds are deliberately saving themselves for September again it would seem. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21325250

Quote ="django"But thats the point. These games DO matter as the teams are jockeying for what position they will be in come the end of the qualifying rounds!'" Looks like Leeds are deliberately saving themselves for September again it would seem. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21325250

Quote ="MattyB"Looks like Leeds are deliberately saving themselves for September again it would seem. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21325250'" Don't be daft. We were beaten by a fired up local rival. How dull it would be if the matches were a forgone conclusion!

Quote ="MattyB"Looks like Leeds are deliberately saving themselves for September again it would seem. www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/21325250'" Don't be daft. We were beaten by a fired up local rival. How dull it would be if the matches were a forgone conclusion!

Its all part of their plan to finish 5th again!

Bored of this argument now.

The fact this keeps getting brought up shows the problem. Did pre-playoffs we had these same debates in pubs and clubs?

There is an argument for the above. I disagree, but it's completely unrelated to the point I quoted.




You are making a connection between league position and progress to the GF. Given I and others have argued that league position is less and less relevant, the point you are making is redundant.

Well it's always difficult to know what your particular issues are.

But my post dealt with the main argument, I feel.

And you can't make a judgement on the importance of this game before the near end of the season. Here's to the point being of potential significance rather than your view that it doesn't matter one bit.

I'm looking forward to supporting the team and wanting to win rather than your apparent view that it just doesn't matter.

Are you really saying that? If so, then you effectively arguing that whether you play at home or away, makes little difference!

"Less and less" is a comparative - it is much less important under the current system than it was previously.

Given a choice of dominating all season, the wheels coming off with a month to go and limping into the playoffs in top spot, or hitting some form with a month to go and making 8th, then there is only one serious winner.


The point I and others are making is that under alternative systems, say for example the top 5, there is much more reward to the teams that finish higher up the league.