He should’ve been right up there. I remember Melbourne were all over him when he was coming through at Cas and who knows, that may have been just what he needed. It’s really sad when natural talents like that don’t have the brain to realise just how good they are.

I really noticed a switch flick in him early last season and he now looks like what he should’ve been for over ten years. He was terrific on Thursday and it’s funny when you hear somebody like Wilkin say Knowles is the best player in the league. I don’t really dispute that but Knowles could only dream of a performance like Westerman’s on Thursday and that says it all. He can be ‘that good’ but it’s too late now to change most people’s opinions.

I’ll be honest, I’d have him well in contention for the World Cup.

It's the possible other disruptions that come too like moving a SR to centre all season or wings to fullback etc. Granted it doesn't look like Woolf uses the same bingo machine Lam used to so that may not be an issue for them.

I've never bought into their depth and again today proves it and like I say when they come fishing on here, it's easy to drip feed a kid into a winning side with first teamers all round him.

Knowles is not the best player in the league. Not even close. He's not even the best player at Saints.

I like him and he’s certainly up there IMO as one of the best few players in the league. Wilkins comments about him and Lockers were ridiculous but what I will say about Knowles is that like Lockers, he isn’t a player to judge by stats. He just brings an intensity and an aura that raises other players standards.

Difference this last few seasons for Saints was two now one very good prop. Even then he also benefited off Walmsley.
The rest are much the same as the other top four or so teams. It's a lot easier to shine off a player who knocks out the equivalent of two decent props yardage week on week on his own. Take that away they would just be in the mix with the rest nothing more, some of the lads building reputations I'm still not convinced.

I’d still back Saints to beat us even without Walmsley.

Agreed

I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think Saints success revolves around one man. They’ve built a culture and instilled a desire in their players nobody can match at the moment.

If they lost Walmsley for the season, yes it would bring them back to the pack a little bit I’d still back them to win the big one at Old Trafford. If they do ever have an injury ‘crisis’ and lose 5 or 6, well that could be a different story.

He's a good player for sure but nowhere near where he's being talked up to. Not even close to Walmsley for example. Can you point me to a single game where he's been 'unplayable' in the way Sculthorpe, Farrell or O'Loughlin were at times during their careers or in the way Field, French or even Connor (for all his faults) can be now?

He's a good player in a good team which helps his game massively as he can just go about his work with no pressure or need to create anything.

He's one of the best back rowers in the comp but beyond that, massively overhyped. How can a steady Eddie, however well he fulfills that role, be considered 'the best player in the league' (sic). It's utter madness.

He’s not that type, I get that but I just think in an era were Saints are winning everything based on the fact their intensity is through the roof and he absolutely leads that puts him right up there.

Maybe I’d class him as the ‘most important’ player in the league, rather than the best one but he’s a fantastic player for my money and is young enough to take it up a level or two yet.

He's not even that though NK. Walmsley is more important to Saints. Field is currently more important to us. He's a good player who is being bigged up beyond his standing.

This talk comes on the back of Saints being dominant. When Bateman had a similar forward to Walmsley (Papalii) in front of him he ripped the NRL apart. Can you see Knowles doing the same over there? He simply doesn't have the game to. That's taking nothing away from him as he does his own game extremely well.

In fact I'm struggling to find many instances in the history of superleague where a back rower was regarded as the best (or most important if you like) player in the comp. If there was, I'm sure they brought more to the table than a solid game and intensity.

Let's put it this way. We both know that put him in our side and not a single Saints fan would be calling him the best player in the league, or even close. The frightening thing is neither would any of our fans! I understand praise where it's due and calling Walmsley the best prop in the league or possibly even the world would have some merit. Calling Knowles a good player or among the best back rowers in the comp is also justified. Anything more than that, at this stage at least, just isn't.

"It wasn't something we've seen coming. We trained pretty well this week."

Woolf post match interview, yep, they're still the team to beat but that's cracked me up, sure I've heard it before somewhere

He’s right up there with Walmsley in terms of importance to Saints IMO. He’s isn’t flashy, particularly eye catching etc but does things that you just can’t measure. He isn’t in Lockers league in terms of when Lockers was at his best yet but I recall Lockers getting dogs abuse across the league at 24-25.

I do agree with a lot of what you’re saying and maybe it’s the quality of the league that puts him right up there (IMO). I’m interested to see how he goes in that World Cup. I see Aussie 13’s like Radley, Finucane or Murray lauded and he’s every bit as good IMO. I think he’ll prove that but we’ll see.

Just to add to this around Walmsley, I could see him being found out a bit in the World Cup. He was dreadful for GB under Wayne Bennett and I don’t think the big Aussie, Kiwi, Tongan etc packs will find him anything out of the ordinary.

Yesterday's result would suggest otherwise



Just one further point on this; I don't buy into this 'he does things that can't be measured' malarky. Greatness doesn't hide under a Bushel. A great player may well do things above and beyond the obvious like motivation, organisation etc but they ALWAYS do plenty that can be measured too. If justification for a player is 'yes, he doesn't do anything flashy or eye-catching but he does lots of work in the background that can't be seen' then he is a solid pro and nothing more. When Knowles starts to take games by the scruff of the neck rather than quietly going about his business then, and only then, will I take claims like 'best in the league' seriously.

Standard Saints that when the rest a few. They were all injured according to Woolf…yeah right!

I've said many times that Saints have benefitted from a low injury count and a uneven competition over recent years. That's not to say they haven't been the best...they clearly have. But faced with an injury crisis the likes of other teams have had to endure and they wouldn't be sitting on a 3peat right now. That much I'm certain of.

The only time we've beat them of late he didn't play

Their players are the best ever produced in every position and their squad is better than anything ever assembled.

Stains-
Played 6 won 5
Wigan-
Played 6 won 5
And yet stains have the greatest team ever greatest coach and 1-17 the bestest players in the league with Knowles/Walmsley - man of steel/golden boot (which one I dont know)
Westerman has a bigger and better skill set than Knowles will ever have.

One of those nights it seems. Our attitude seemed off, perhaps a touch of complacency who knows. At least it stops the unbeaten tag being shouted about now, I don't know one Saints fan that thought we would go the full season unbeaten. Toulouse scored nearly as many points against us than we have conceded all season.

It does make me laugh though, this "If Saints had a few injuries I wonder how they would go" comment. That's like saying "If Salah didn't score as many goals this season, Liverpool wouldn't be challenging for the title".

Our S & C team is part of the reason we are Champions 3 in a row. Our fitness is the best in the league and a big part of why we do okay with injuries year on year, it's not luck and it's not a coincidence.

I know that Woolf said the club is looking into the travel arrangements for the future as we don't have a great record in France over the years. Getting up at 6am, 2 hours on a cramped plane and a completely different match day routine isn't great for the body clock and I've never agreed with us travelling in and out on the same day. Our unbeaten record went against Catalans in France last season too. Will be interesting to see if we change the routine in June when we go back to Toulouse.

Hopefully we respond now in the best way. It's great for the game that Toulouse get their first win against the Champions.

The travel arrangements are a tricky one to handle. Wigan's 10 day stint clearly didn't work and in/out in the same day didn't work for Sts.

On another note, how do people think the two teams would go if the coaches were swapped around? Would Woolf get more out of the Wigan squad? Would Sts just carry on as they are?

Both statements are true though aren't they? Yes they have a "if my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle" vibe about them, but they are true.

You have had little injury worries over the last seasons and have profited. Get the same injury crisis as ourselves, leeds, wire, hull etc and that dominance slips despite your fans belief that you're the greatest side in history. Could you compete week on week missing 7 or 8 players as we had to do last season when everyone took great delight in us getting beat? Seeing as you lose every time you play a weak side the answer is clearly no.

Saints fans hate the comments that they’ve had luck with injuries or questions of how they’d get on with 7 or 8 injuries at once but people are going to ask those questions because they’ve never had to deal with it this last few seasons, whilst pretty much every other club has had to.

I’ve given them huge credit for what clearly must be a high quality conditioning/physio department but to say luck doesn’t come in to it clearly isn’t true. Somebody goes in to a tackle and breaks an arm, gets their leg caught in a tackle and twists an ankle, gets hit high and breaks a jaw, keeps picking up head knocks and sits out with repeated concussions and on and on and on. To say luck doesn’t come in to it simply cannot be true. Yes they may be doing well at not picking up muscle injuries from poor conditioning or fatigue (Woolf does his bit on that score by thinking up ways of players getting rests, no exiles players, England pull outs, post cup final rest etc) but that’s just one part of the puzzle.

I'll tell you one thing- we get very little credit for what we have done these past few years. Morgan Knowles alluded to it on the OOYL podcast where he said it frustrates him. In a salary capped sport, to win it 3 times in a row is an unbelievable effort (not to mention we also won the CC last year)

I guarantee that Wigan fans weren't saying it was a poor comp when Leeds won it 3 in a row from 07-09, suddenly Saints are the dominant team and the league is a poor standard.

What about when Wigan dominated all those years? They were the only full time team then so hardly a fair competition. Now that the playing field is level, they haven't dominated in the same way.

Saints win the Final last year and it's "they only just beat Catalan" sorry but are Grand Finals not meant to be closely fought? We won the LLS by a record margin in 2019- comments of "it's a poor league".

Our consistency over the past few years has been up there with any other. The amount of times we have won the LLS is testament to that.

My final point on injuries too, the way Wigan fans talk we get literally zero. Yes we may not get 7 at a time but we have had injuries. Lees has had two relatively long term ones, Knowles missed quite a few last year, Fages was gone for the season after the CC and we lost Bentley from August for the season. Percival has also missed a lot of games the past 3 seasons.

We played a full season without Walmsley in 2018 and were 80 mins away from the GF when only poor tactics from Holbrook saw us lose to Warrington.

We really don't get the credit we deserve. I don't know any Saints fan personally that says we are the greatest team in History but if we look at the SL era from 96, you'd have to say that this current team are up there as only Leeds have done what we have done in the 26 years since SL.

The salary cap makes it a relatively level playing field so any dominant team deserves full credit for that.

I don’t get the whole ‘we don’t get enough credit’ line from Saints (well I do but I don’t believe the players/coaches actually believe it deep down). I think it’s a mantra the inner circle at Saints are throwing out to keep themselves motivated but it’s absolute rubbish IMO. The main coverage of Rugby League is via Sky and my word, they absolutely love Saints and lord the club and most of it’s players to the hilt. You would think Welsby was the second coming of God, Grace the finest winger to have pulled on a pair of boots and Walmsley was made of titanium and so on and on.

Saints have always been a popular club across the game as a whole, certainly a far more appealing winner of a comp to the game in general than Wigan or Leeds and I’m not sure what it is the club wants? I get the players using this line as motivation and also that the fans will just go with that but you surely see why they’re saying it. There’s nothing more dangerous than a quality side thinking they’re badly thought of but nothing could be further from the truth.

Stu, you do realise that the Saints conditioning staff aren't privy to information or techniques that the rest of the league isn't, don't you? Of course there's luck involved!

Certain players are less injury prone than others and you could argue that you've been lucky on that score. You could argue that as a club it's a consideration when you sign players that their injury records are good. You could argue that you're conditioning staff apply their knowledge wisely. All would contribute to having a better than average injury record.

What you can't argue, however, is that an awful lot of luck doesn't come into it too. Unless, of course, having Walmsley missing at the moment through injury is due to a failure of the conditioning staff?