Not of we continue to make "progress" as we have done since 2006 we won't.



Not sure how you conclude a player of Riddell's age has a great future here but regardless of that the problem is we are not making any progress at all.

What the orignal post alludes to in the past of gradual or even revolutionary progress has is not happening at the moment. The best two examples I can think of are our current coach and scrum half positions.

Under the old regime out went McInnes and Clarke who won us a challenge cup and in came Lowe.

Also under the old regime out went Mick Ford and in came Andy Gregory.

Now if it is suggested Noble isn't good enough or TL isn't a good enough 7 to take us forward, this is considered sacrilege by some. However look at what the club did back then! It got rid of successful coaches and a good young scrum half because they were not good enough to take us to the next step.

It remains to be seen if IL is as ruthless as that. Depending where TL ends up playing (9 or 7) he has not gone out looking for the next level up of scrum half. Will he keep Noble? We shall see but I think these two examples show the parallels between then and now are not so clear cut at all.

Dave

We will make some wrong ones though and it's the acceptnace that mistakes will e made and the ability to get over these rather than Ponder on them so intensely and look for someone to Hang for those mistakes that can drag us Back!

Daily Mail? Now that really is going too far.

I am sure there are different types of youngsters in this world but I wasn't the one generalising.

As to me disagreeing with your post what did you post it for? Nothing but pats on the back?

I have in my previous post given a couple of examples of why I think your parallels are a bit fanciful. The Clarke/McInnes and Mick Ford examples.

I can also point to no progress since 2006 which seems to be considered some sort of watershed but we have in fact been going down hill slowly since about 1998. 11 years.

I like watching the team win. I enjoyed the win v Celtic. My son did too! I expect IL did as well but hopefully he is a realist and will act accordingly.

One way your post may have a ring of truth in it for me is if IL replaces Noble who did his job of saving us from relegation with a coach who can take us to the next level. I assume you don't agree with that idea but it is exactly the sort of parallel I want to see in the current regime with the old.

Dave

Who said they were "Clear Cut"? I said they were my perspective on the situation and I stand by them!

Did we turn a shambles of a club round into the best team in England in 1/2/3 season or did it take 7/8 seasons?

Did we go from Relegation material etc into a better club year on year without making any backward steps or mistakes in 1/2/3 seasons or more like 6/7/8 as I suggested?????

Who's to say IL won't make the same radical decision 2/3/4 years down the line when as a club we have a more stable Base/Platofrm to work from than the one he Inheritted/Purchased 18 months ago!

Next Question for you DaveO

You have all the Answers! And I think Iv'e asked you this before and you chose not to answer!
Given that IL is making so many bad mistakes & the club is in such a shambles comapred to 3 years ago!

[size=200"WHAT WOULD YOU DO"?[/size

Jukesays for chairman!

IL needed to shake the club up top to bottom and it will be a long gradual process back to the top but when we get there it will be one hell of a party

Chrissy Waddle

It's not "B0ll0x" at all. It's a fact we replaced successful coaches who won the cup one year with Lowe the next. And that we replaced a cup winning scrum half who did not look out of place opposite Peter Sterling in the 1985 cup final.

What went on before has got nothing to do with those decisions being made. Better people were available so the club went for them. No pussyfooting around. No misguided loyalty to good players and coaches but right in there for the ones to take us to the next step.

You can argue Lowe and Gregory would not have come in 1980 if you like but you miss the point. The point is the club was not afraid to replace good people with better people. It was the kind of ambitious move that typified the 1st Mo regime.

Sticking with Noble is the opposite of that. Sticking with him is not IMO part of some master rebuilding plan but the exact opposite.

So as to what I would do well the obvious starting point is sack Noble and move for someone like Kearney.

Dave

Results wise we have gone backwards no if's or but's about it but still regardless of that imo we are putting together the basis for a good team. A new HB to direct and a respected prop would put to another level competitiveness wise.

Our young players are 2nd to none Ainscough, Tomkins x2 & Prescott would be taken by any other club in the league. We’ve got another level of youngsters like Goulding, Mcilorum & O’Carroll who are still better than a lot other clubs best prospects. The future is bright if they are maximised via the loan system/ accelerator schemes which IL has showed he’s clued into.

We've also got the likes of Hock, Lockers, Gleeson, Carmont, Feka, Richards & Tommy who are more than good enough senior players to play big roles in championship winning setups.



If I’m correct is the guy not 27? Since when did a 27 year old not have a good future? That’s five years min at the club if he stays till he’s 32 which isn't unreasonable to think he may. He's already an improvement on Higham so again a step forward which is what was eluded to in the OP.



As I said a new good HB would transform this team and bring out the best in what is imo a talented and exciting backline waiting to be unleashed with a little bit more clever play by our HB’s. Think back to Trent and the effect his passing game had on the likes of Joel and Hansen’s attacking game. Losing Trent was big but again he was still gonna leave at the end of this season as he was a short term fix. Add Tommy to nine scooting and we’ve got a very good balance at that position to.




Again you’re assuming TL will play 7 next season and that Noble will also be the coach 2. IMO it’s very, very unlikely Noble will be here next season (so to knock IL on it is laughable) but when he does leave he should be congratulated for settling the club down in a time of crisis, keeping hold of some good young talent and imo taking us massively forward from the Betts then Milward era. We needed stability and he gave it now it’s time for ‘Lowe’ to come in and take us up again. You honestly can’t say Noble wasn’t a step forward from Milward nor has he put in some good foundations at the club.

Tommy also will be moving to 9 imo. It makes sense for the club and player as both know Tommy playing 7 isn’t the best option and Tommy obviously must be able to see that if he moves to 9 his international place will be a lot more secure than it is a seven.

Do you honestly not think we are moving forward bit by bit and just a few changes will revolutionise us? IMO you can where we are heading and how we need to get there which is a lot better than other clubs like Wire, Hull FC, Castleford, Wakey who are either doing good but can only take it so far or just don’t have that potential for greatness in them.

What has Riddell offered that Higham hadnt?....he is taking a quopta spot and looks off the pace.

How can you say IL has taken us forward?......results on and off the field will judge that and cannot see and type of improvements over Mo yet.

Riddell is 27 and an established first grade NRl player so he should be offering something instead of coming over here and expecting to improve under us we should be improving under him.

So you say Tommy to 9 ....well with Piggy at 9 also does that mean MM will be released as you cannot have 3 hookers in the modern day cap as its a waste so then IL will be going back on the promise of homegrown players and releasing someone who is outplaying his opposite Aussie counterpart.

Noble may have been a step forward over Millward but was given an open cheque boom and we smashed the cap due to it. Dobson, Fielden and Rads out of retirement and Millward had to do with Jonkers and Jorden James......think you need to look at the bigger picture.

Hannibal, Murdoch, Face, B.A. & that fit bird?

The ability to actually pass a ball, and a speed of thought faster than dripping treacle?



MM is quite simply not good enough, he offers absolutely nothing in attack, is indecisive and 'slow' in thought.

Maybe after a loan period he 'may' improve, but it's stupid to keep the lad on what he currently offers just because he came through the academy.

So here we go off topic again, not even bothering with the OP,s discussion, straight into minute detail think its uyou who needs to look at the bigger picture!

Think the initial post is an excellent summing up of where we are and some good comparisons, I started watching and supporting in the mid sixties and remember well the ups and downs, my first ever season ticket was the year we got relegated, did it stop me supporting the mighty Wigan, obviously not!

We will never again see such dominance of the sport, but I do believe we are going in the right direction under IL and the next coach will be another stepping stone, so come on all you negative whingers get behind the team and KEEP THE FAITH!!

Well said Jukesy.

The one major difference between then and now is that Lindsay et al had no restraints in place as to how and when they recruited, for example they could cast aside a Mike Ford to sign an Andy Gregory and have several star players in the side without it having an impact on squad depth or quality.

The problem with today is that generally squad sizes are minimal, the ability to go out and sign a star player inevitably means cutbacks elsewhere - also the rules have changed. The Wigan side would have likely won the league at last 10 times on the trot had it come down to the play off system, they were getting "shot at" every week and had to perform most weeks not from 3 games out from the end of the season.

He's a far, far better player than Higham as for a start he's a hooker that can pass and doesn't give away silly pens.



Looking at it against Mo’s first stint at Wigan then we are not even close but compared to his 2nd tenure at Wigan and the fiasco’s like SC breaches, rubbish signings on BIG wages, Milward, letting all our top players leave in the space of two seasons, possible relegation & the state of our finances I’m more than happy that IL has taken us away from this sort of regular turmoil and mess.

Add to that we now have a board of directors & a savvy operator like Hogan running the show mixed in with the basis of a good squad which with a few choice signings will be the strongest over all we’ve had in years again imo we are taking small steps forward.



We have imo as he’s a better hooker than Higham. It’s just he’s not Barrett and the void he’s left is far to large for ANY hooker to fill.



Yes MM will be released. Tommy is 23, young, talented and an international who has shown commitment 2nd to none for the club. These are the type of player we need to be keeping imo and if that means an academy product leaves as a result then is it really so bad? And if you think MM is outplaying Piggy then your sadly, sadly mistaken.



Regardless of finances he gave us stability and should be thanked for it. He’s now run his course and we need the next level again. Like the OP said small steps forward and not stagnating.

Why is he better than Higham? how many games have you been to this season? Does he run from dummy half? does he stay on the pitch as long? is his passing better? show more drive and determination? passion? quicker? I think not. He has had time to settle and there are no fruits.




Any fool can run a steady ship the point is he's had 2 seasons to get a decent squad together and hasn't. His agreements for signings like Mathers, Riddell, Phelps, Smith etc... is shocking. Because they are australian IL wanted to return home from his Mo-esque trip down under with a name and he got whatever was available not people contracted to clubs who were big names. He doesnt want to spend his money (apart form gleeson now)



Mick Hogan is the one of the best things to happen to this club in many a year and for that I commend the club. Do you honestly think with a 'few' good signings we will be right again. On paper Wigan have 'names' not players, many have been here far too long like Fielden to live upto their names, it hasn't happened. If we are going forwards why are we getting worse each year? We did better in our relegation threatened year and results wise have got worse since then, there are stats to back this up (DaveO?). The only way we can make small steps forward is the sacking of Noble.



We dont need a hooker to fill the role of a 6. Nobody can replace Barrett unless we pay top aus$ for the worlds best player, which wont happen.





I'd rather have an academy product with talent than a foreign player with comitment. We know tommy likes the club, Higham did and he showed the commitment but was released to be replaced by a player who is not as good as Higham in every department (apart form goalkicking). The only reason MM wont get above Riddell is because of Riddell, he's foreign, quota and costs a lot so we have to play him. MM will leave the club for first team football and join the ranks of Briscoe, Robinson, Tickle (debatable) and any successful ex-wiganer. Long (even though it was quite difficult breaking into our 95 squad)?

Intersting conversation in the Pub After the Saints game when someone was ranting about sacking Noble straight away!

Because a couple of people (And I wasn't involved so there are others out there with a Patient view) said they wouldn't sack Noble straight away the guy went Ballistic!

He said we should get someone who's a proven track record of winning things, someone who's won SL & Challenge Cups, Someone who has won WCC, someone who has international experience Blah Blah Blah!

He then shut up when someone said "What Like Brian Noble?"

The thing is DaveO, Talk is cheap.

And I believe the actions of IL over the last 18 months although Not perfect have overall been the right ones and he has 80% satisfied my long term goals given the circumstances he found himself in and what he has to work within over the Next 5/10 years.
Anyone who thinks they would get EVERYTHING right or sits back and criticises every decision They themselves think is wrong is living in the land of the Fairies or is You!

AJ

TL was out of contract and a high wage earner (supposedly). Surely this was the ideal opportunity to spend those wages on a better no 7 as was done in the past (Ford/Gregory)? It's not as if the club didn't know when his contract would end so saying "who is available" as if they should only start looking this week is no excuse.

It is also not as if the club has not recruited expensive players in recent times. Fielden, Barrett and Gleeson are (or were in Fielden's case) all top players recruited since 2006.

My view is the club (well any club) needs to bias it's sending toward 6,7, 9 and 13 along with the front row. They lay the platform and the rest of the players (2nd row, and backs) can be less expensive players. You won't win anything with a bunch of average players across the board.

Dave

I wouldn't, I'd rather have the Best player for that position that helps the Team overall to Improve Irrespective of where he is from.

If he's an Academy player and a Wiganner all the Better!

And if we had kept Robinson/Tickle/Briscoe/Wild/Hodgson/Aspinwall what would we have done with Ainscough/S.Tomkins/J.Tomkins/Hansen/Prescott/O'Carroll/MCCollorum/Goulding/Lockers/Hock etc etc???

And forgive me if I'm wrong, but did IL get rid of any of them???
Has he got rid of any local/Youngsters in the last 18 months that were shocking decisions????

Look at the original post, this is not about Noble or Higham it's about the Club as a Whole!

PS

I take it you don't like Piggy then Mickey?
How do you know he's on more money than Mickey Was???

DaveO

Who's saying that TL's Wages under his new contract are anyting like what they were under the old one?????

And Why do his wages have to be the ones that pay for a New SH or SO??

What about Coley's wages not likely to be used next year by Coley?
What about The money freed up from Baileys wages???
What about the money freed up possibly from Carmont/Tim Smith & cameron Phelps???

Etc Etc????


Does every decision made have to be Micro managed/analysed/criticised???

Sometimes decisions have to be made that aren't the perfect ones short term however long term will bear fruit.

I've seen plenty of games this season thank you Marc and i'm more than happy, and i know others are to, that Riddell is a superior player to Higham.

He doesn’t run as much as Higham from DH but then again that’s pretty much all a limited 9 like Higham could do. Having said that I’ve seen him make a few good runs from DH and is deceptively quick for a larger guy so it’s not all doom and gloom

His passing is far superior to that of Higham’s as he can give, short, long and miss pass balls which is something I’ve yet to see Higham do. He reads the game better than Higham and executes plays better and faster.

Are you trying to say MM is our best hooker?

Riddell and Tommy are both better players than MM who has looked nothing but ordinary since his 1st team debut. We are stronger with these two swapping in at 9 rather than MM playing a role there.

exactly what I was thinking.
Rome wasn't built in a day but I reckon we need a new architect to co-ordinate the builders.
Otherwise it will never be built.
Saints have embraced Superleague. We must do the same.
I have to admit that if I'm watching a derby and it starts to rain I think that it will suit Wigan!

Which is completely and utterly irrelevant. In case you had not noticed we ARE currently in a position to entice top players. We have signed the likes of Fielden, Barrett and now Gleeson in recent seasons.

My point is we ought to be behaving in the same way now as we did then and contrary to your opinion we ARE in a position to do so. Plenty of people do not consider TL a good enough enough 7 yet we have signed him up again. It's no use saying we will sign another half back and TL will play 9 because that is pure speculation which of course is not allowed is it? I also happen to think it is unlikely to happen based on who is out of contract and what other positions need to be sorted out.



Good grief. I was criticised for speculating that Smith will leave and we will have Riddell and McIllorum at 9, TL and Tomkins in the half back positions and here you are living on fantasy island. TL a stop gap? With a three year contract? He isn't a stop gap at all.



We did not take any steps to go from Clarke and McInnes to Lowe. They were far more successful at this club than Noble has been and were replaced. The fact we had several coaches before them is just not relevant but in any case we had Murphy who was at the time considered another top coach.

Who we had before the decision to replace Clarke and McInnes is another huge irrelevance. It had nothing to do with that decision. In any case Noble is supposed to be a top coach so we are already at the level of employing top coaches so therefore wanting to see a similar replacement exercise as what happened to Clarke and McInnes seems extremely relevant to me.



It didn't take him 6 or 7 years at all. This is just utter nonsense. We had a scrum half, Ford, who was quite good - we appointed a better one, Gregory. We currently had a scrum half who was OK but not the best 7, supposedly on a high wage so what do we do? We give him a new deal when his wages could have gone, IMO, on a better player. We were actually in an unconstrained position to deal here. And as to the salary cap it works both ways i.e. players can't command silly money any more so your implication that I am suggesting we chuck money around as if there was no cap is wide of the mark.

As to the Bosman ruling what on earth are you on about now?



What's my agenda?



Well at least we agree on something.



<sigh> The reason Noble's position got mentioned again is because of the parallels between what happened in 1986 and what I would like to see happen now. You are the one who was harking back to how it was then as if we could learn lessons from it. Well IMO one of the biggest lessons we could learn was what happened with the Clarke/McInnes/Lowe situation.



You seem to want to hang me for expressing the opposite opinion.



How about because the longer he stays the more damage he is doing? I'd have Wane in as caretaker tomorrow if it was up to me.



Don't be so ridiculous.



You are right it is not the only single factor which is why I said it was a starting point. It is however the most significant change that can be made to influence the clubs future in the short term.



What would you suggest we do if that happened? The fact of the matter is Noble has been a failure at Wigan. His only achievement was saving us from relegation. Thank you Brian, time to move on. He has achieved nothing else and without going over them all again there are plenty of other valid criticisms of Noble's time here as coach.

Dave

Good read and very well worded.

Ok DaveO

Even though I can't help but feel that 90% of your dissatisfaction at the club is down to the Non-sacking of Brian Noble I will ask one more question as simply as I can!

Lets get to the Crux of it then!

Do you Believe that as a "Complete Club" (Not just on the field) we are in a better or Worse position looking at the next 5 years considering what the exisiting Chairman has done in his first 12/18 months than we were 3/4 years ago (2005 early 2006) and the prospects then for the following 5 years?

Simple answer required

2005/2006 - ML & DW at the Helm Looking forward at next 4/5 years

or

2009/2010 - IL MH at the helm looking at our prospects for the next 4/5 years