It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though.

I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.

Really agree with the points made, especially Pieman and the salary cap thing in general.

As a wire fan, things are ok/good at the mo as we have a backer in S Moran who is willing to try and bring in the best players as possible. That said, I wish our side now was competing in the early sl era where you guys, Saints, Bradford and Leeds were going toe to toe. Even though Wire weren’t a part of that exclusive group, it was great as a neutral to watch those games where all the top 4 sides had quality players across the park.

For me, the salary cap has done so much damage. Yes, the overall league is more competitive, but it lacks the box office players to bring the crowds in. A couple of years back, when we had Chris Sandow; love him or hate him, he added (I reckon) at least 2k to our attendances. We had a sell v Widnes only 2 years ago.

I used to hate Wigan many years back, along with Saints now, or any more successful local sides than Wire- which was most! But I found it a bit sad watching your game v London with such a low crowd- It’s worrying times for our game when the the most famous club worldwide, in both codes arguably, has masses of empty seats. You guys used to have an average of 17k a few years back.

Anyhow, for the good of the game, (yes it’s nice to beat the previously unbeatable for us in you guys and Leeds), but I’d rather lose a few matches and have higher attendances returning, especially at our flagship sides.

There’s no easy solution. But one thing’s for sure, if we can start to attract the box office players again by changing the salary cap; our sport will grow attendances and start to attract the bigger sponsors again. Thus giving our fantastic sport the exposure it deserves.

(Post- I’ve just posted at the same time as your post Post)

Wire would certainly flourish if the Salary Cap was gone because you have a wealthy backer and lots of money to spend.

And you know what ... I wouldn't resent that for one second.

We need as many clubs as possible signing big name players. You weren't too shabby in the era we're talking about when you had players like Les Boyd, Steve Roach, Joe Ropati, Des Drummond, John Woods playing for you. Then there was Leeds and Widnes with their big names. Wigan may have dominated overall but it was still a high-class competition with some incredible contests and good sized crowds.

People will always argue that two or three clubs being great is not enough, especially if the cost is other clubs going out of business trying to compete. But other clubs have gone out of business even under the salary cap, and now we have no teams who are great, and the poor crowds are reflecting it (despite the better weather).

Change is cleary in the air. But my fear is that it'll take too long.

Wire are up there now spending money on good Aussies in their prime with Blake Austin, they have decent squad players and have dipped their hand into Rugby Union market with Luther Burrell (Don’t know if he’ll be any good mind), I wish more clubs in SL had the same idea.

I agree with most of what's been said. I would like to say as well that the constant chopping and changing of format and rules has really contributed too. The Super League bosses have been far too reactive and knee jerk. Some of the formats and rule changes have been silly gimmicks at the expense of long term credibility.

Also obviously it's just money. Salary cap is the big one. It's frankly embarrassing that the league only got Ben Barba because he's a coke head and Joel Monaghan because he put his cock in a dogs mouth. How can we celebrate having those players when they clearly only came because of degenerate behaviour? It's like we just pick up the dregs. I'm not trying to take a moral high ground here either, I know Wigan have Zak Hardaker and had Hock, I'm just saying they would be playing in England anyway, the first two just demonstrate that we're such a league we only get outcasts.

Nice one Cruncher and Post. You’ve just reminded me of Widnes during the late 80s (when I first started watching RL). What a side that was. I went to the game Wids v Wigan (88/89 I think) at Naughton Park for the league decider under the floodlights. What a game! Two top quality sides going toe to toe. It’s a few years back, but I remember Widnes winning, something like 11-6 I think??
I can kind of remember the sides. I won’t quote the Wigan one as you guys will know it. But here’s the Widnes side as far as I can remember:

Alan tait
John deveroux
Andy currier
Darren Wright
M offiah ( I think he was still at wids before he moved to you for 400k
Myler/Davies
Hulme
Sorenson
Mckenzie
Joe grima
Koloto
Moriarty
Les holiday/Richie eyes (sent off at Wembley v you in the cc)

(It’s just an educated guess at the team Widnes would have had at the time)
There were other class players not in the 13 I’ve mentioned. Fimalo, other Hulme brother, Mike o neill, Brimma kebie. The Wids forwards brought in by Laughton were absolute beasts.

But as you say, we did have some good sides. I’ll never forget losing out to Joe Lydon’s drop goal (semi at Maine Road). You scored a conciliatory try near the end but it was close. It was such a good side and team which gave your superstars a proper game. I’ll always look back at those times and have a shed load of envy. But, as a Wire fan; a pack of Boyd, Tamiti, Roach, les Davidson, mgginty, and Sir Micheal Gregory will always give you a chance, and definitely give any fan of proper sport a real reason to buy a ticket.

Funny- the Ben Barba and J Monaghan bit

Quote ="The_Enforcer"Who exactly came up with the salary cap idea? Its socialist/communist in nature and just drags the top teams down to the level of the bottom teams. Surely it is illegal if challenged in court? It limits a company investing in better players to increase their revenue via more people coming through the turnstile to see those better players.'" Quote ="post"It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though. I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.'" Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Quote ="The_Enforcer"Who exactly came up with the salary cap idea? Its socialist/communist in nature and just drags the top teams down to the level of the bottom teams. Surely it is illegal if challenged in court? It limits a company investing in better players to increase their revenue via more people coming through the turnstile to see those better players.'" Quote ="post"It was brought in to stop us winning everything, in realty we pushed the boundaries and became the most famous rugby team in the world, up there with the all blacks, we were in debt and had to win the challenge cup every year to break even though. I wonder what the Premier League would look like if they were only allowed to spend 1 million a week on wages? All the superstars would go abroad, as would the sponsors and their money, the standards would decrease and the spectacle would follow, because of that the viewing figures would decrease as would the revenue from the TV deals. And here we are.'" Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Absolutely spot on , good post

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" The salary cap works well to equalise the teams competing within a certain competition, whether it be sL or ru etc. But rugby competitions ie. Sl, NRL and RU (spit), are competing with each other. So whoever has the highest cap, is the winner. A cap would only work if it was upheld by all competing codes/genres of the overall sport.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" The salary cap works well to equalise the teams competing within a certain competition, whether it be sL or ru etc. But rugby competitions ie. Sl, NRL and RU (spit), are competing with each other. So whoever has the highest cap, is the winner. A cap would only work if it was upheld by all competing codes/genres of the overall sport.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" You're right, it's probably not going to die. But as long as the new regime - which your chairman was near enough the only CEO to oppose - takes over, it'll continue on its route to semi-professional mediocrity.

Quote ="Sir Kevin Sinfield"Salary cap’s are used throughout most sports other than football. Rugby League isn’t on its death bed, it has simply become less popular in Wigan. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap'" You're right, it's probably not going to die. But as long as the new regime - which your chairman was near enough the only CEO to oppose - takes over, it'll continue on its route to semi-professional mediocrity.

I do agree that the season starts too early.
Expand to 14 teams and drop the 6 loop fixtures and start the season 2 weeks later.

I agree with less fixtures and later start, but the sticking point is going to be Sky getting their money's worth to enable this to happen.

The salary cap came into our game due to Maurice Lindsay bankrupting Wigan and other clubs trying to keep up with them. The RFL and the clubs then took the Sky shilling to keep going with a full time squad.

The salary cap can only be raised if there's more money in the game, and there's only one way for this to happen - through TV. However, I'm not confident that we'll get an increased TV deal.

1 - The salary cap can only be raised if there’s more money in the game.

2 - The only way to get more money into the game is via sponsors, TV deals and rich owners.

Sponsors won’t sponsor a second rate competition, they want their brand associated with top level sports, hence why we are sponsored by betting firms, mushy peas, cider and cheap spartan cars.

TV money won’t be raised or we won’t get a much better deal because TV companies aren’t falling over themselves throwing money for our rights because the standard isn’t good enough, the standard is t good enough because we don’t have the players, the players won’t come because we don’t have the money etc etc and we enter into a vicious circle.

Rich owners won’t come into our game and spend money because they aren’t allowed to, look how Marwan Koukash was treated, he’s a well respected owner in the horse racing industry but he was treated like some backwards naughty upstart who dared to dream. If that doesn’t put money men off coming to our game I don’t know what will.

We are in a vicious cycle, the only way to break that cycle is either by Sky throwing a load of money at the game to improve it, so we can increase the cap and sign the best players from NRL and Union or

We scrap the cap.

That would be fine if we had a number of individuals with the cash (owners or otherwise) to spend on player recruitment.

I don't think that there are any, the other option is by funding through debt. That's just not sustainable, and led to the salary cap in the first place.

Your correct with the "vicious circle" but there's no easy answer to breaking it.

i agree with about the SC. Removing (even substantially raising) it is no panacea, as others have said, it doesn't solve the issue of lack of money in the sport, but things have reached the stage where action on it needs to taken. Taking third-party deals off the cap would be a simple and pretty painless reform; there's no reason that couldn't be done right away.

What I don't agree with is the complaints about "sanitisation of the sport". If the sport is so sanitised, how come RL suffers more injuries than any other sport? The game is plenty tough enough.

And old-skool fans may want to "bring back the biff", but

a) It's just not going to happen, is it? Everyone knows this. And

b) TV networks and sponsors don't want to see it either, which is why is has largely disappeared from other sports like RU.

Other sports do it, do you think Formula 1 is sustainable? Or football? Or Cricket?

There’s two ways we could get out of this vicious circle and that’s either removing the cap and allowing teams to spend as they wish and raise funds however they can whether it be going into a load of debt, having a wealthy board of directors/investors, having a wealthy owner or pulling their fingers out, making a proper marketing and sales team who can go out and secure sponsors and come up with ideas to make money, or

increase the cap with extra funding coming from Sky’s TV money to allow us to compete with Rugby Union and NRL. It would need increasing to at least match the NRL if we are to attract a better standard of player.

Sky can get their fix....it's about time every game was on TV now anyway to do that
14 teams.
1 Thursday
1 Friday
2 Saturday
3 Sunday.

I agree that we need to compete with the NRL in the amount of salary cap ceiling, and that funding must either come from TV, sponsorship or benefactors. I just don't see loans being the answer.
The other problem we have are chairmen who won't let other backers in without receiving either some, or all, of the funds they've put in. The bottom line is getting cash into the game, when currently, we have some chairman who won't commit any further cash to their clubs.

You've mentioned Football, F1 and Cricket, which all have their dedicated Sky channels. We don't appear in the promo's like we used to do, and were down the pecking order at Sky. Our next TV is critical, and I think were going to be disappointed.

It's going to be extremely difficult, but agree that something needs to be done, without mortgaging the future.

Between RL Sl/NRL and RU domestic and internationals and reruns....there's enough to have a dedicated rugby channel between us.

How could we possibly increase the cap to match that of the NRL when the TV deal, attendances and income are way below that of the NRL.
If we increased the cap to the same as the NRL it would be more than half the SL clubs annual income and leave the likes of Wigan, Saints & Warrington with only a couple of million to pay for everything else. It’s entirely impractical.

There are many reasons why RL’s national profile has de lines since the 90’s. The salary cap is NOT one of them. The bankrupting exercise RL’s clubs merrily engaged in in the 80’s and 90’s very much is. That’s why we have out of date clubs playing in out of date, embarrassing facilities in front of sometimes embarrassing crowds.
There are other reasons such as the concentration of media in the south and the focus away from regional to national stories/interests. Along with a media refocus away from working class to middle/upper class audiences. No-one is bothered about watching 2 small northern towns play each other anymore. They want clubs and places they can relate to. We don’t provide that. The majority of people in the country wouldn’t be able to find on a map where half the SL clubs are.

But let’s not kid ourselves that if only we could spend more money on overseas players that would solve the issue. Not at all. If we have money spare to spend on overseas players that we’re not currently using then it’s a disgrace that that isn’t being spent on domestic player development.

The reason why only 5 SL clubs own their own stadium (and only 3 of those are of a good standard) is because of the ridiculous overspending in the 80’s and 90’s. We desperately need to spend money on infrastructure, marketing and development. Not on players.

How old are most rugby league clubs? 100 years old most of them aren’t they? How long is a ground supposed to last once built? Can’t those clubs do what each and every one of us does and get a loan to pay for the building of the stadium? Pay it off over 40 years?

It’s an investment for the club, they can have all sorts on at the ground like concerts and so on.

So your attitude is to carry on the way we are going which is on a downward spiral into a part time feeder sport.

A previous poster had a good idea of not letting 3rd party sponsorship count on the cap, if it’s coming from a third party what harm is it going to do? Raising the cap is not the b all and end all to the problems we face but nothing can get better until it’s either raised or abolished.

For me it's the sports demographic that has hampered Rugby League more than anything else. I can see why people want to blame the salary cap, but getting rid of it with the sole intention of hoping clubs spend big money to get top name players is a recipe for disaster since clubs can barely break even as it is.

Over the last few decades more than any other time, sports have become global. The Premier League ended up with a huge bidding war because it was massively marketable in this country, then took off on a global scale because it featured marketable city based teams such as Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea, Tottenham etc that could gain support around the world. Rugby League doesn't have that. We also suffered during the financial crisis. Working class towns were hit the hardest, and that's where most rugby league support comes from. The value of the pound went down, the value of the Aussie dollar went up and suddenly there were less reasons to come over to Super League, while Super League players found it much more affordable to move to the NRL. Had we scrapped the cap at that time and had clubs start chucking money around it would have been a disaster.

Scrap the cap and you might get some bigger names playing over here, but to be honest most rugby league players from the NRL aren't big names to the general public. Then you still have the problem of the difference in lifestyle between Super League and its major competitor. There's no real competition between living in the North West of England and living in Australia.

There are plenty of towns in the UK which are in decline, so is it any surprise that sports teams in those towns might be in decline? Or that a sport still largely based in those towns has suffered a decline? All the focus is on cities. There's greater incentive for sponsors to get involved and it's sponsorship that dictates the sporting landscape these days.

I just don't see how clubs with a working class fan base are going to generate the interest among sponsors to grow. As a result any improvement in the quality of the competition will largely go unnoticed. Even when we had a better standard of players in Super League I wouldn't say the game was thriving financially. The NRL can thrive because it's one of the main sports in Australia. It's played in the big cities but mostly ed around Sydney. There's plenty of incentive to get involved.

This is why Toronto is such a big opportunity. It's why New York and Ottawa provide opportunities too. The only problem with those sides is that while it might bring more marketing potential to Super League, it might not do enough to help the issues faced by the heartland teams. Expansion is important for rugby league if it's going to start making a name for itself against stiff global competition. It hasn't helped that previous attempts have targeted areas with the exact same demographic and the same issues - such a Crusaders in Wrexham. The sport won't gain much by expanding into working class towns.