I'll give you the scenarios of you like?

1/ no people are hospitalised or die
2/ some people are hospitalised or die
3/ a lot of people are hospitalised or die

There won't be 1 answer to hopefully reduce 3 to 2 to hopefully 1

Vaccines
Social distancing
Lockdown if needed
Etc, which h you can plan for
Along with "Hopefully" the new strain not being as deadly etc which you can't

Never seem them made public only worse case

Where's all the extra money gone?

As for the variant it spreads a lot quicker. Drs who deal with patients in Africa says its not as bad on lungs as the inital variant or Delta. Ppl stay in hospital for less days and little need for oxygen It was originally discovered 9th nov. You might think i am anti SAGE. Problem i have is with Boris and his management of the data. According to the spectator article its the Gov who then uses the figures which they ask for. I just want them to be honest and tell us the truth.

Thanks for you reply appreciated.

It's funny that many talk about cherry picking, but fail to even reference numerous financial experts who've noted the catastrophic impact another lockdown will have on the economy. The people calling for us to 'save the NHS' are funnily enough the most secure job wise - lockdown or not, they'll continue to go into work at the NHS. Those of us in the services sector, aren't that lucky. I've seen plenty of my clients, good people who've invested their everything into businesses fall on hard times.

Now the majority have had their jabs and there's apparently record booster numbers too - we can't keep doing the one foot in, one foot out of lockdown BS.

I do understand given the more positive data/news going around why people are frustrated by the thought of more measures.

Case rates look to have peaked and now on the decline in Guateng
Huge decline in the death rate during the Omicron wave in South Africa compared to Delta
Hospital stays shorter in S Africa and Denmark
50% of adults receiving the booster including most of the vulnerable and nearly 1m a day being administered now
Antivirals starting to be rolled out

I would be really surprised if Omicron causes a lot of deaths in the UK given the above but hospitals could still be in danger of having too many patients to deal with and too few staff to deal with them given the sheer numbers in the UK. I probably would favour the short 2-3 week circuit breaker option to relieve a bit of the pressure on hospitals and buy some time for getting all adults who want one their 3rd jab. Plus it would end before the rugby starts

But if we're going to do it I'd honestly prefer to get the most we can out of that time and have full lockdown rules. Would have to come with appropriate financial support for all affected.

That's a balanced opinion tbf, but the appropriate financial support will always need to be paid back in the end.

Once again, it will be those businesses that suffered the most that will continue to suffer. The business that was forced to mothball and had little choice but to take out a loan, that now needs to pay it back + the deal with the undoubted tax increases that will come. After all, how else is the money going to be paid back if not via tax rises?

I'm sure the same medical experts will then be calling for more funding for the NHS too.

I said it a couple of days ago, you can't just listen to the medical experts. It's admirable tunnel vision with them i.e protect the NHS, but plenty of it is at odds with how the world works outside of their NHS bubble.

Vaccines were indeed the game changer with proven empirical results however, I believe the objective of the vaccine is to reduce the severity of the virus and the reduction in getting and potentially passing on the virus was a gratefully received bonus.
The virus as we now know is airborne so it gets into the body via nose/mouth and attaches itself to cells in the throat/lungs whilst the vaccine is input into the bloodstream which means the virus is established before the vaccine can start to do it’s job which it does well but still too late to stop the virus.

I suspect the real answer to the virus ( I also suspect that sage and the government knew from the outset) is medication that can be taken via a spray to the throat and nasal passage. Very little if any news is reported on this development and I’m bemused why that is the case unless the development of such a drug is beyond current known knowledge. The other answer is herd ammunity which has enabled the human race to exist for 40000 years (or as some believe 100000 years) and does have a part to play in this.

By the way I perhaps should have added I’ve had my jabs and my booster and would encourage everybody else to do so. I’ve got 3 siblings with chronic copd, 1 with cancer and a very good fried with cancer so I am fully aware of the impact on any of them if they we’re to get the virus. I’ve also lost 2 good friends to the thing so no way would I consider myself even remotely an anti vaxxer but I would consider myself inquisitive on the issue.
The problem with being inquisitive on this issue is that it is difficult to determine even the most simplistic questions e.g. what was the target set by sage/government for vaccination take up? Is there a generally “accepted” level of take up eg 100%?
The answer to the first question I believe was no target was ever set and the second question no vaccine has ever had an advised target of 100% anywhere in the free world since the very first vaccine.

You state people cheery pick what they want they want to hear or state but it applies across the board from all sides of the argument (it should be debate but that term is now virtually extinct).
A 30% increase can initially be startling however, if the comparator is from a low number then the actual increase can in fact be quite small. I’m not saying that it is small but context should always be applied where doubt could occur.
The comparator is also important. Week on week is obviously an important one but if the vaccine really is the game changer then year on year comparators are also essential.

You state that lockdowns work but based on what? Worked for whom? I reluctantly supported the first lockdown but now with vaccines should things not be different?

The MSM are hand tied by OFCOM so no real debate has taken place on the virus so people revert to Twitter (god knows why) and YT where people like Corbyn are spewing tripe. This also means that other eminent scientists and epidemiologists never get the chance to discuss alternative courses in meaningful debate with their peers.
Professor Gupta at Oxford University is one one the most eminent epidemiologist in the world but to my knowledge she has never appeared on MST sine the start of COVID. Do I agree with her views? I’m actually unsure but would like to see her discuss the issue with her counterpart on sage.

For me the elephant in the room is the NHS. I’m not anti NHS having my life saved by superbly trained staff and countless friends and relatives also benefiting from the service.
I suspect at the moment lack of staff or more importantly the right staff in the right place is the fundamental issue which COVID has fully exposed. Every winter season the NHS is at “breaking point” but nothing seems to change. Money/finance is the obvious issue but inflexible staffing also means that resources cannot be flexed at peak times for winter ailments such as flu, COVID etc.

At the time I thought the Nightingale hospitals were the potential long term answer to an extremely difficult and repetitive problem however, the lack of trained staff made them redundant before they really started.
I’d happily pay more tax for a better quality and more flexible nhs however, that’s easy for me but for millions of others just not doable even if they supported it in principle.
It’s a monumental task and as I wouldn’t know Hopson even if I fell over him is he the guy to fundamentally change the nhs?

The daily cases of Omicron are reported, along with vaccine roll-out, hospitalisations and sadly deaths. However I struggle to find what I feel is key data with would allow me to make an informed decision as a fully vaccinated person, as to additional actions I would take, and support, and that is "what percentage of omicron cases are occurring in the 1) Fully vaccinated (i.e. 3 jabs) and 2) the partially or zero vaccinated population?. In addition what are the demographics?"
If anyone could point me in the right direction to a source of this info, I'd be grateful.
Would we discover that the UK is in the midst of an epidemic of the younger age groups and / or the not fully vaccinated?

Took me about 20 seconds to find the following that shows all ranges. Like I said, listen to the expert not the political hack..

[urlhttps://www.gov.uk/government/publications/introduction-to-epidemiological-modelling[/url

Great post. I know twitter is 99% bull. But some on there gives you facts and figures and breakes them down. Jamie Jenkins for anyone who likes to see where we are is great. Mainly does some media work. BBC Wales GB News and radio. Shows where hospitalisation really stands rather than what we get by papers.

As for debating matters people have become entrenched in their view. Way too many get news on this from MSM who are obviously forced into following Gov message. Professor Gupta world leading in their Field is not even seen on BBC due to not following the narrative. And you got to wonder why.

It's a good point. The Centre for Disease Control (CDC) in the US shows stats in that way:

[urlhttps://twitter.com/ryanstruyk/status/1472932495092232201[/url

Very interesting, very simple to understand

I too wish they were more transparent with this next level of detail.

I am guessing it could be due to not being able to link the information? I haven’t ever tested positive but what are the different ways you officially report it? Are there ways that are not linked to your NHS account?

Regardless, it should be possible and could be used to encourage vaccine uptake? The risk is though that it encourages those with boosters to mix more than they planned and causing an increase in transmission, hospitalisations etc.

I remember seeing something on the bbc the other day and I am sure it said 9/10 people in hospital with serious illness hadn’t had both vaccines or hadn’t had the booster

We've had lockdowns which have failed. We were told that vaccines would be the passport to freedom, not true because 90% of adults have been vaccinated and we are no nearer being released from this authoritarian grip. Perhaps, just perhaps, we should try something different! I suggest herd immunity and focused protection and then we can get back to normality. The Great Plague didn't last as long as this and that happened more than 450 years ago!!! Listen to this lot at your peril.

Its being widely reported in the media that approx 85% of hospital admissions are unvaccinated people.

Correct, lockdowns don't work, and I think that if this Government tries to impose something that they clearly don't practice themselves, they will experience the wrath of the Public.
Boris et al, continuously preach the merits of the third jab, but for Christ's sake please provide the evidence to back this up! There was a report on the BBC late last night regarding the surge of Covid cases in New York, a part of which showed a graph of infections over time. New infections amongst the fully vaccinated remained low but constant; partially vaccinated still relatively low but rising slightly, whilst the line representing the unvaccinated was rising exponentially.
Let's see what the situation is here, and then let the public determine, and act upon, their own individual risk assessment based on that data.
I'm fully vaccinated, and since restrictions were lifted, I've still always worn a face covering in shops and public transport, and I still go to the pub once or twice a week and meet up with friends (who have operated on a similar cautious vein). We're all fine, thankfully.

So the rest of the population who have acted responsibly throughout all of this potentially will be punished for the actions of the selfish, reckless and feckless minority.
Imagine the scenario where a child suffering a serious trauma was denied an ICU bed because the last place had been taken up by an unvaccinated Covid patient.

Which lockdowns failed and why?

- Too late into lockdown?
- Insufficient rules in lockdown?
- Rules not being followed by public?

The vaccines did grant us freedom until a new variant came about that started to evade the vaccines.

Hasn't the herd immunity theory been rubbished? How will that work?

By focused protection do you mean just shield the elderly and the vulnerable and just let "the rest of us get on with it"?

Sounds like you're arguing against vaccines and lockdowns without suggesting any plausible alternatives.

Please send a link to this, will be an interesting read.

Haven't they already provided the evidence that demonstrates Omicron evading those who have had 2 vaccinations and once you have the booster you are protected around 80-85%? What more is there to say?

my sister works in the ICU she said 100% are

Basically, yep.

The anti-vax argument of libertarianism and freedom of choice is going to end up removing everyone's freedoms

I’ve been and had my booster, despite what I said merely a week ago.

Few reasons really; I can see where it’s going (double jabbed plus booster) for the ‘passport’ they say doesn’t exist but does. Also I can’t remember who posted it but the ‘primary school - 1st jab, secondary school - 2nd jab and university - booster jab’ comparison. In addition I’ve done some research, I think as nathan_rugby advised, and everywhere I’ve read is that the booster is 80-85% effective. Or to put simply my “I’m not listening to this shower of the proverbial anymore” argument is essentially biting my nose to spite my face.

That said, I still don’t believe lockdowns or restrictions are viable anymore, not just because of this shower in charge but how many more times do we do it? Every winter? There’s always a flu spike around this time hence the yearly flu jab drive. Perhaps that’s what’ll happen with COVID or, as would make better sense (and if possible!) the COVID jab is incorporated into the flu jab. Clearly I’m no medicinal scientist, I’ve no idea if that’s possible or already has been done, but if it is possible surely that’s the way to go?

I’d imagine masks and jabs are going to be around for quite sometime, even if there are no rules regulating the wearing of them. Wearing a mask doesn’t bother me in all honesty, so much so today I forgot I was wearing it and drove home from the club shop in my car on my own with it still on. The few good things to come out of all this though are better community spirit, better all round hygiene and a far better and deeper understanding of what family and friendship actually mean.

Quote ="nathan_rugby"Please send a link to this, will be an interesting read.'" It was quoted in the media by Dr Hilary, Lorraine Kelly, Martin Kemp Jeremy Vine and others and its bull. They got called out on it. None have accepted an offer to debate them with Jamie Jenkins who breaks down the data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 38736/amp/ People hear it on tv and do not question it https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet ... 4245481476 Its obvious vaxx does help but what does not help is blatantly lying. Some are anti vaxx and you will never change their minds when ppl lie.

Quote ="nathan_rugby"Please send a link to this, will be an interesting read.'" It was quoted in the media by Dr Hilary, Lorraine Kelly, Martin Kemp Jeremy Vine and others and its bull. They got called out on it. None have accepted an offer to debate them with Jamie Jenkins who breaks down the data. https://www.google.com/amp/s/metro.co.u ... 38736/amp/ People hear it on tv and do not question it https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet ... 4245481476 Its obvious vaxx does help but what does not help is blatantly lying. Some are anti vaxx and you will never change their minds when ppl lie.