I think that Powell will start from the bench together with 3 props and Sammut will start in the halves when available. I don't think that it is matter of "dropping a player but Sammut will probably give us more balance and hopefully add to our pretty poor kicking game. The downside to this is that it will impact on defence and the first 2 games we seem to have much less intensity than last season so this may well compound this issue.
We have lost our only game player in ST and Sammut I can only assume was signed to cover part of ST's old role.

The problem for me is Escare. Yes he's exciting and can bring a bit of flair but I haven't got a clue what his position is as I don't think he can play in the halves and for a FB is defence isn't the best. Ideally we could have traded Escare and got a better player than Sammut but we are where we are so although I am not overly enamoured with Sammut he is a Wigan player so personally I will give him my support.

I would hazard a guess that the previous coaches worked out that at that current time Tommy at 7 and Powell at 9 worked "Better for the Team"and I would argue results backed that up.
Now the new coach has gone with the same I can only assume he believes that also however as Sammutt got himself banned in a pre-season friendly the option has so far been taken off him.
As I say with Powell racking up 50+ tackles & 80 minutes every week I can't see him changing it, certainly this week.
Moving forward if Sammutt proves himself in training and or when an opportunity arises I can see him playing 7 - But Tommy will deffo not be playing 9 each week for 80minutes for the next 30 games.
He may go with Tommy off the bench and/or alternate them both but that will affect how we use our substitutes if we go with a 9 off the bench.

Dropping Powell. I guess his high tackle count, 80 minute efforts and overall contribution warrants dropping to the bench for a player who's never really made it at SL level.

And the same could be said in reverse
If he doesn't pick him then things might be going well and/or Sammutt may be struggling

Proof would also suggest then that even with a winning team if the crowd isn't entertained then winning several trophies over a few also doesn't guarantee improving the gate. From a personal point of view from 2015 to 2017 most games at the JJB were pretty dire and I know quite a few people who stopped attending during this time and haven't comeback to watch any games during the season let alone start buying a season ticket again.

There are probably lots of reasons for declining gates from the quality of the game to people just moving on to other interests whatever the reasons are it is pretty worrying and hopefully IL has some plans to turn this around even it takes 3 or 4 years. I keep hearing that some of the marketing staff have left and haven't been replaced I just hope that if this is true that it is just a short term situation and the plan is to further invest in marketing the club in the future.

I'd be more than happy with a +18k crowd on Sunday and in the current climate I think that would be more than acceptable although I am sure IL will have a different view in that for him this one match where we need to maximise our income.

So TL and Powell cant do the same tackle count between them??
What are your thoughts on TL's & GW's kicking capabilities?

What's your thoughts on changing a winning team? Dropping players who are consistently winning in high profile games? (playoffs/GF?)

If it helps the balance on what is a pretty significant change in line up then yes if you consider moving to the bench as being dropped. Isn't the game now about the 17 rather the 13?
By the way I am not particularly anti Powell or pro Sammut I just don't see the point in signing Sammut unless the club intend playing him. By the way if Powell had a half decent kicking game I wouldn't propose Sammut in the halves however, his kicking game is on a par with TL & GW which in my opinion is poor to pretty much non existent.
What about TL's and GW's kicking game? I assume that TL & Powell together cannot match Powell on his own in terms of tackles?

I'm pro-winning. I'm pro rewarding players who consistently play their part in a winning team. I want Sammut to be a success at Wigan, but like I said in my original post which kicked all this off, he should earn his place, not leapfrogging players who are part of a winning side. If we weren't winning I'd suggest experimenting with our squad to generate winning performances, be we have that.
You keep trying to bring up kicking, like it's a justification for including Sammut, when it's so basic, such a surface level comment, when you look a little deeper there's a number of factors to why a player is selected, and currently we're selecting a winning team.

Imagine if I'd have asked 6 months of we're all in favour of signing Sammut and playing him in our halves, what do you think the response would have been?

I think we need to get Sammut in the side tbh but I wouldn’t be doing it this week as I just don’t think we can afford to start changing round combinations that look rusty as it is (certainly in defence). We need a long kicking game and currently we don’t have one, resulting in us giving it to Hardaker and getting him to lump it up in the air.

It probably sounds very negative but I just can’t see anything other then a comfortable victory for the Roosters on Sunday regardless of us having a solid kicking game or not. It’s with that in mind I’d keep Williams, Leuluai and Powell in their current positions before giving Sammut a run against Hull.

I think Sammut will naturally get his chance. They'll be a dip in form, injuries, or suspensions which will see him feature. Competition for places is a good thing. I'm actually looking forward to seeing him play at some stage, but as I've discussed there's a bigger picture, we have a winning team who turn up in big games, that's our best bet at success wouldn't be logical or fair to go with anything else.

Sammut will indeed get a chance but he’ll need more than 1 or 2 games before he’s hung drawn and quartered.
Escare also played his part in the championship winning 17 but hasn’t featured this season yet. What are your thoughts on that? Tautai has been left out in favour of a lad from Barrow but no mention of it.

Hung drawn on quartered? I'm guessing your missing the point again. I have no issue with Sammut, and hope he plays his part, but he shouldn't be leapfrogging the GF winning halfbacks that is all.

I don't think you really want my thoughts on Escare and or Bullock. You're just trying to argue and pull it back it your favour.

I'm guessing you want to catch me out? i.e state how Bullock is in the same boat as Sammut no doubt. Haha!

You're a good debater Bigred, albeit a little transparent.

I didn’t mean hung drawn and quartered by you personally, just in general. He’ll need a good few games to get into it.

You’re spot on though in relation to the comparison. Bullock and Sammut are in exactly the same position in that they have come up from a lower division. The difference is you’re happy to see Bullock given his chance ahead of a player who played his part in last season’s success (Tautai) but not offer the same courtesy to Sammut with Powell. I’d like to know what you see as the difference.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that now did I? Read my last post Mr Predictable

I don't think Sammutt was signed for an immediate start. More like he will be picked according to the opposition and the rate of introduction the club are looking for.

I do think he has been signed for the transition between 2019/20 and 2020/21. This could be the last season for both Lockers and Tommy and if the both go then they are big gaps to fill. We will need an experienced pivot then as George may stay beyond 2019 there again may be not, who knows right now.

That was always the reason to me why Hastings on a one year deal was no good. Two years was a minimum.

The club's planning will depend on conversations they have with the the three players. I trust there will be
talks before the end of April as changes of this magnitude will take some handling

Ok let’s go back to the start of this little debate.

Unless I’m completely missing your point (which I’m not) your position is that a player (Powell, Leuluai or Williams) who contributed towards the winning run and culminated in a GF win should not be ‘dropped’ in favour of a player (Sammut) who was signed from a championship club. That’s a reasonable point of view and one I agree with to a point.

However, the exact same situation applies to Tautai. He played a big part in the run to the GF yet hasn’t featured so far because a player from the championship (Bullock) has been selected instead. Bullock has been far more effective than Tautai was in the run to the GF and not many people would put Tautai in the 17 ahead of him.

My point throughout the debate is that in much the same way as Bullock has, Sammut needs to be given a chance to prove himself. Nothing more, nothing less. If that’s me being Mr Predictable then I’m ok with that.

Rather than put words in your mouth, I’ll ask your view on whether or not Bullock should have been given a game ahead of Tautai, given his contribution to the winning run and GF success? I think he should because he has shown in preseason and friendlies to offer more. I believe the same to be true about Sammut who had a decent game, particularly kicking wise against Salford.

You're dying for me to go back and forth with you on this aren't you...

Are you saying that last season Tautai contributed as much as Tommy, Powell and Williams to our success? I'm merely sticking to you comparisons for clarity. You seem to look at things on a very surface level basis, without looking at the details of the discussion.
It seems, as you previously posted you think the Bullock/Sammut situation is exactly the same, when it's really not.

PS you did miss my point... and once again you tried to put words in my mouth.... shocking Bigred

His kicking capabilities and hopefully his organisational skills are exactly why I think when fit that Sammut will start on a regular basis unless his form indicates that he isn't up to SL level.

As a club and the game in general kicking from hand seems to have little focus or emphasis in period when territorial advantage is a major prerequisite of being able to dominate a game. If I could pick any player in world rugby today without a shadow of a doubt it would be Owen Farrell who in my opinion could transform the sport as we know I particularly in SL.

Last year's successful team had Sam Tomkins in and without him our balance has totally changed hence why I think we have signed Sammut because non of current halves has a reasonable kicking game in his nal. I hope that Harry Smith will develop quickly and that Sammut is very much a stop gap.

If you could pick anyone in world rugby you'd pick Owen Farrell?

I’m really not dying for you to do anything! This is a discussion board if I remember correctly and we were discussing!

You do like to make things into personal arguments though and I’ll never get drawn into that. I’ll end my part in this discussion with the belief that in your mind, it’s one rule for one (Tautai / Bullock) and another rule for another (Powell / Sammut) as you simply don’t like the signing of Sammut. Enjoy your day.



Oh, we agree about Owen Farrell though!!

I'm literally trying to avoid an argument with you.
I see the discussed Tautai v Bullock very differently as the Powell/Tommy/George v Sammut debate. Are you saying that because they both come from lower league competition they are the same? That's merely one very basic factor.

Anyway, I do hope Sammut gets his chance, but hopefully not at the expense of the 3 discussed, who I felt were crucial in why we won the GF.

PS Tautai didn't even play in the GF. Front rowers were Sutton, Nav, Clubb and Flower, so that ends that.

Wow you’re like a tramp on a kipper! I’m well aware that TT didn’t play in the GF but your whole ‘can’t drop Powell, Williams or Leuluai’ argument was based on the unbeaten run in the Super 8s, not just the GF so it’s far from ‘that ends that!

I’ll not be commenting on this thread again as it’s clear you like to have the last word so be my guest..... I’ll be the one sat on the edge of my seat waiting for the not so whitty ‘so ner ner ner ner’ remark.

Aww... please don't cry bigredender, it'll be ok.

And now back to the rugby. Roll it back a few posts. Pretty sure I'd roll out the red carpet for Cronk etc, remember? If anything Bullock has replaced Sutton.