Hasn't he only played 5 games or something is season? Predominately behind a beaten pack. Last season he was performing well enough to get into the England team. He's a young man, give him time.

The last sentence is the bit that really worries me. It really is turning into the Noble part 2 saga.

This comp is so limited in quality this year it is ridiculous. We should not be accepting struggling along scraping through and then a late charge as acceptable. What happened to people's standards?

Many teams have played well all season and won the title. It tends to be the exception that teams bumble by playing awful rugby and then win it, hence why the Leeds team the year they did it is constantly regurgitated.

Accepting mediocrity (not that we are even that) is not acceptable.

I believe there will be a peaking plan, however ALL our competitors will have a similar plan, peaking is not an idea only limited to our club. Expecting to limp into the finals with a team misfiring and lacking cohesion in my opinion is professional suicide for Wane.

I really however do not think it is the case that this is a masterstroke by the coaches. I expect to see is physically improve as Britcon is no dummy and at the moment we look way off the pace so I can only assume that is part of the plan.

Reports however coming out of training is it is very physical and intense, this does not suggest players are being rested rather than injured, we seem to pick up a lot of injuries away from the pitch, more than any other and I would expect the missing players mystery has more to do with this than keeping the squad fresh.

I agree with your points, more so that the quality in SL isn't up to much, the league 'levelling' isn't poorer teams getting better but good teams dropping in standard.

I still believe, call me the king of wishful thinking, that we'll begin to build momentum in preparation to peak at the right time, with a team as fresh as possible. We are playing the squad game, not a 17 man game.

Time will tell, but I think you'll see a very different Wigan when its the business end of the season.

I've stuck up for the side all year up until Friday really. I thought our effort has been great most of the year but that changed on Friday. I think a few got caught up in the Tomkins hype and just presumed we'd get carried along on a wave of euphoria. Sadly we were playing a side who are red hot.

It will take weeks for the team to gel. Players are coming back but they'll be rusty and we still look like a side at the very beginning of its season because of the disruption in key positions. There's a lot of things I'm not happy about currently in regards to how the club is being run but I'm still confident we can get ourselves in good enough shape to have a huge crack at all three trophies. That confidence comes more from the fact that the league is pure pants rather then because I feel we're particularly good.

Very interesting theory but it's akin to believing man never landed on the moon.
You can't turn form on like a tap.
For me we have a bunch of average players witha sprinkling of awful players.
We have no go forward full stop. The SOL at prop is the biggest load of tripe ever to come out of SW mouth. Historically there were ball handling props but I can't remember any that were as small as SOL. Flower would be OK as 3rd or 4th prop together with Clubb but as starting props simply not good enough. We have zero aggression which for all of SWs talk of toughness is a joke. Our forwards are too small, unfit, lack aggression and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Basically fodder for opposing packs.
We have 2 centres who simply cannot pass.
We have halves who cannot organise a p*** up at Tetleys. Our halfs can't kick - have you ever seen a RU half even at Amatuer level that hasn't got a decent kicking game? What do they do all week recite the "game plan" from notes handed out by the coaching staff?

And you think come Septmeber all this will change? As Ive said previously I admire your positiveness but just can't see it happening.
If your right and we get to the GF give me a shout and I will pay for your ale for the day as a penance for my negativity

The team over the past few months will be someone different from the team at the end of the season. It's not as much about form as different personnel. Once the 'first team' is back and gelling together we'll see different performance and different results.

Currently we're slowly seeing a return of some first teamers, but they're gonna be rusty, this was more than evident with the poor passing and movement.

PS about the ale... it's a deal!

I remember reading sh*t like this at the same stage last year. Get a grip you moaning f*ckers!

I for one accept that some people are happy with what they get and somehow remain positve, like yourself. I however feel massively un-entertained and often bored watching us play, and have done for a long time. I don't see how things will change. So yes I'm also one of the moaners you despise so much.

I can almost accept the point in relation to returning players....almost.

However under our current structures we could have the Aunstralian 84 Invincibles running round in the Cherry & White and they would struggle to make a break given the predictability of our attacking plays, sorry play!

To expect that we will suddenly be more creative when we hit the play offs when we struggle with the current, most basic patterns at the moment and their timing I feel isn't realistic.

I am positive we have the potential from a playing staff point of view to win a trophy or 2 this year, I am less so confident we have the coaches in place to ensure this team reaches it's potential.

Hopefully I will be proven wrong.

That's definitely the issue, if we make it to one or even both finals it's papering over the cracks of how dull the regular season games are getting. You only have to look at average attendances from the past 3 or 4 years to see that a lot of people are losing interest.

Exactly, something is going to have to change to make this season better, and there's a few things I think that will, First off stick Sam at 6 and have Sarginson Full back, then have Tomkins and Williams at 6 and 7, that will be a lot more of a creative partnership then the current one, secondly I'd get rid of Sam Powell, hid passing is beyond shocking and his running game is virtually non exsistent which is the two key skills of a hooker and he hasn't got them, Try Matty Smith at 9 and if that's not working swap him round with George, and Forwards wise Have Clubb and Tautai start, as they seem to be the most Enthusiastic and aggressive props we have, and in the second row get rid of Joel and play Bateman and Isa because even though Isa isn't that good, he's still better than that pile of penalty machine Joel Tomkins

Don't forget the personnel will be different. This makes a massive difference. Regardless of course I'm speculating. Time will tell. However I will be topping myself if I'm wrong and I have to watch the current shower for much longer.

And do you seriously think any of those things are likely to happen?

Will it heck as happen. We will run the same plays with the same players, the only change will be more hill sprints and wrestling in training with a little more shouting, then the use of cliches and buzz words to the media will get recycled. I know this is all sounds quite bitter from me, but I'm just sick of watching the same rubbish every week and then reading and listening to the same rubbish from Wane, my patience has run out with it all.

I have been a season ticket holder since the 70's and can't remember a time before where I haven't looked forward to watching the games, even in some of the real dark days. The current brand of rugby on offer is boring to watch. I accept that this should improve with the returning players but our attacking "structure" will remain and as we have seen all season this is now ineffective. Teams know how to deal with our one move and we must be a dream to defend against.

I watch other teams and most look dangerous in the opposition 20 whereas we don't look as though we can score unless the defence makes a bad read and we manage to squeeze a winger in at the corner.

I watched Hull closely last week and the ball player sometimes had 2/3/4 options when attacking our try line. We generally have 1 option, 2 if we get giddy. We have got to the point where we have to rely on individual brilliance from players like John Bateman who I must say have been nothing short of superb so far this season.

My views on recruitment have been stated by others so I don't want to repeat what has already been said (no specialist back up hooker/lack of size/an average senior half back etc etc).

Action needs to be taken. Fans are already voting with their feet and the longer this goes on the worse it will get.

I watched the highlights on the SL Show last night, and the worrying thing is our defence looked just as bad as our attack. Some of their tries were as soft as it gets. If we make it to a final, it will just be papering over the cracks, just as the injuries excuse has helped paper over cracks that have been widening over the past couple of years.
I was watching one of the NRL games on Prem and I think it was Andrew Johns who said it's the effort of players off the ball which is just as important as the effort of those receiving it. You look at some of the NRL teams and there are 4/5 players in motion/backing up at most play the balls, asking questions of the defence. Everyone knows their role and what's expected. You watch us play and there seems to be very little effort with maybe one dummy runner. Part of me wonders if the players have actually got tired of Wane's coaching...

Quote ="KingRoss11"Exactly, something is going to have to change to make this season better, and there's a few things I think that will, First off stick Sam at 6 and have Sarginson Full back, then have Tomkins and Williams at 6 and 7, that will be a lot more of a creative partnership then the current one, secondly I'd get rid of Sam Powell, hid passing is beyond shocking and his running game is virtually non exsistent which is the two key skills of a hooker and he hasn't got them, Try Matty Smith at 9 and if that's not working swap him round with George, and Forwards wise Have Clubb and Tautai start, as they seem to be the most Enthusiastic and aggressive props we have, and in the second row get rid of Joel and play Bateman and Isa because even though Isa isn't that good, he's still better than that pile of poop penalty machine Joel Tomkins'" You'd get rid of Sam Powell and replace him with Smith? Really? The only player in the league that's made more tackles than Powell is Danny Houghton. Smith can't tackle, is slower than Powell and his passing accuracy is worse! Our issues undoubtedly start in the halves and we desperately need a new scrum half. You can't knock Smith for effort but his ability is very limited. If we had a scrum half with speed, an eye for a gap, a good kicking game and basic passing skills we would spend a lot more time in the opposition half! Sneyd, Brough, Lilley, Burrow, Dobson, Mellor, even Myler are all better than Smith. This is not a scapegoat comment as there are others who need to improve massively. The difference is I'm not sure Smith has got much improvement in him. the18thman.com/2016/05/18/super- ... -tacklers/

Quote ="KingRoss11"Exactly, something is going to have to change to make this season better, and there's a few things I think that will, First off stick Sam at 6 and have Sarginson Full back, then have Tomkins and Williams at 6 and 7, that will be a lot more of a creative partnership then the current one, secondly I'd get rid of Sam Powell, hid passing is beyond shocking and his running game is virtually non exsistent which is the two key skills of a hooker and he hasn't got them, Try Matty Smith at 9 and if that's not working swap him round with George, and Forwards wise Have Clubb and Tautai start, as they seem to be the most Enthusiastic and aggressive props we have, and in the second row get rid of Joel and play Bateman and Isa because even though Isa isn't that good, he's still better than that pile of poop penalty machine Joel Tomkins'" You'd get rid of Sam Powell and replace him with Smith? Really? The only player in the league that's made more tackles than Powell is Danny Houghton. Smith can't tackle, is slower than Powell and his passing accuracy is worse! Our issues undoubtedly start in the halves and we desperately need a new scrum half. You can't knock Smith for effort but his ability is very limited. If we had a scrum half with speed, an eye for a gap, a good kicking game and basic passing skills we would spend a lot more time in the opposition half! Sneyd, Brough, Lilley, Burrow, Dobson, Mellor, even Myler are all better than Smith. This is not a scapegoat comment as there are others who need to improve massively. The difference is I'm not sure Smith has got much improvement in him. the18thman.com/2016/05/18/super- ... -tacklers/

I think to get the best out of your people in all forms of management you have to keep things fresh and evolve. I think a lot of these lads have been in the Wane environment for a long time, maybe too long. The best managers that spend a long time at the same club in any sport seem to be the deep thinkers, they change and adapt environments, tactics and players to keep things fresh.

I just don't see Wane as being talented enough to do that. His approach seems to be that of an authoritarian coach, and rarely do they stay around for a long time whilst being successful.

You could highlight Alex Furgusson as an counter but he changed his assistants fairly regularly and gererally they do the coaching in soccer, he was also a very deep thinker about the game, and had no fear of getting rid of his best players if he felt things needed a freshening up, Ince & Beckham for example both world class players when they left instigated by internal clashes with him.

Do I think Wane could lead the Wigan team going forward? Yes. He clearly has passion for the club and town, however he seems to think he does not need to surround himself with quality, experienced aides to improve things/change things.

He seems to be sitting there whilst Rome burns around him doing nothing to really rectify the issues which have been evident for the last 2 seasons and for that reason I feel he needs to go.

No it probably won't happen because Wane is a stubborn old git, but in my opinion that's what needs to happen to change, Although I do think Sam will improve our attack even at full back, he's not enough to make it 10-12 more points a game which is what need at the moment

Quote ="Bigredwarrior"You'd get rid of Sam Powell and replace him with Smith? Really? The only player in the league that's made more tackles than Powell is Danny Houghton. Smith can't tackle, is slower than Powell and his passing accuracy is worse! Our issues undoubtedly start in the halves and we desperately need a new scrum half. You can't knock Smith for effort but his ability is very limited. If we had a scrum half with speed, an eye for a gap, a good kicking game and basic passing skills we would spend a lot more time in the opposition half! Sneyd, Brough, Lilley, Burrow, Dobson, Mellor, even Myler are all better than Smith. This is not a scapegoat comment as there are others who need to improve massively. The difference is I'm not sure Smith has got much improvement in him. the18thman.com/2016/05/18/super- ... -tacklers/'" At the moment I'd get rid of Powell yes because all the things a hooker needs, he hasn't got which are a good running game and decent passing, at least Smith can pass and his kicking game won't play a part because he's at dummy half, Sam and George can kick so it'll be better In the halves

Quote ="Bigredwarrior"You'd get rid of Sam Powell and replace him with Smith? Really? The only player in the league that's made more tackles than Powell is Danny Houghton. Smith can't tackle, is slower than Powell and his passing accuracy is worse! Our issues undoubtedly start in the halves and we desperately need a new scrum half. You can't knock Smith for effort but his ability is very limited. If we had a scrum half with speed, an eye for a gap, a good kicking game and basic passing skills we would spend a lot more time in the opposition half! Sneyd, Brough, Lilley, Burrow, Dobson, Mellor, even Myler are all better than Smith. This is not a scapegoat comment as there are others who need to improve massively. The difference is I'm not sure Smith has got much improvement in him. the18thman.com/2016/05/18/super- ... -tacklers/'" At the moment I'd get rid of Powell yes because all the things a hooker needs, he hasn't got which are a good running game and decent passing, at least Smith can pass and his kicking game won't play a part because he's at dummy half, Sam and George can kick so it'll be better In the halves

I actually think Powell has done ok since McIllorum got injured. He's played long minutes every week and has been very steady. Let's not forget he's a squad player and not a first choice hooker. Smith on the other hand is our first choice scrum half. The one who should make the team tick and for me he's nowhere near the level he should be at. His passes are far too often behind the intended runner meaning they have to 'check' their run and lose momentum going into the tackle. They get dominated and the PTB is slow. (Not always because of Smith).

I'd certainly like to see SW try something different though. Sam & George in the halves but leave Smith on the bench. Bring him on to give Powell a rest. Powell is making 50 or so tackles a week and I just can't see Smith doing that.

I'm with the majority on here and I think a big shake up might be in order, starting with SW. I'm just not sure who would want to come that could offer more? Player wise, I'd take a shot on Konrad Hurrell to take Charnleys place but move Gildart to the Wing but I would prioritise a scrum
Half over all other positions.

I agree with a lot of things you've said there, mainly to do with SW, his time is up I think and he needs to go, who do you get? Maybe Daryl Powell if you can tempt him.

Sam Powell has done okay up to now but because of the amount of minutes he's played as you say, it's taking a toll on him I think and making him worse, you could try George at Hooker, Matty Smith and Sam Tomkins in halves and Powell off the bench, that'd add a bit more maybe

Regarding Matty Smith, I'm one of his biggest haters if im being honest, I think he's quite possibly the worst scrum half in super league but because Wane was so dumb enough to let Rocky go at the start of the season, we've got no real back up stand off/ scrum half. Matty proved how good he was (or shall I say bad) when George and Sean were injured, and if we'd of had George and Rocky in the halves, I generally believe we'd of been 6-8 points a gam better off than we are right now.

Shaun Wane, I don't mind but his time has come, imo he's a bit of a bully and thinks the only way he can get through to his players is screaming and shouting at them when it obviously isn't working, his ego has probably driven Harris and Deacon out of the club, leaving only him with very little help, just the way he likes it.

Something has to change or else it's not our year and it's going to have to start on Saturday against Leeds

I just can't see Wane changing anything considering he says he doesn't have any concerns about our attack. Like most I would like to see some sort of change but the thing that strikes me is that senior players are in absolutely awful form and making stupid mistakes. The only one that is playing at any sort of decent level this year is Charnley (not counting Bateman as senior yet..), the rest have been appalling.

We had the best start to a SL season in years in terms of winning games but even then the performances were miles off. We could easily have lost the Catalan mudfest, could easily have lost the Huddersfield away game, the Salford home game, and Hull away. Those results have put us up in the top half of the competition and in my view paper of some significant cracks.
The injury issues have been well documented as has the illness that led to the hammering by wakey and to be fair we haven't had a consistent run of games with our senior players involved. I'm worried about our club but I said I'll give it a few more weeks before I write us off. Once we have a run of games with Sam, Lockers Faz & Flower in the ranks it'll be a more accurate indicator of where we are. I've always said that SL is about squad depth and the one thing this season has shown is that our squad can't cope with several first choice players missing at the same time.
To put things into perspective, I'm not confident we'll beat Leeds, even though they are so bad!!

I posted during the Leeds game that we were absolutely awful. I got absolutely blasted by the majority on here as we were winning games. All the things I commented on at the time and in that game are what everyone is complaining about now. The issue of bland, lifeless unimaginative rugby is a deep rooted issue that has gotten progressively worse over the last two years. Wane is to blame for that, solely and completely. The creative element is either being stifled or the players are that low on confidence that even the basics seem beyond them, we can't hold the ball playing boring, simple predictable rugby. How Wane plans to change this intrigues me, because for two seasons he has done the opposite, he has slowly squeezed the creative free flowing rugby that we once played out of the players.