yeah they are both built like each other, i think if curtis sironen can lose some puppy weight he will be next class to come through looks very good so far.

100% agree.

I am extremely pleased to be able to say that Wigan is back to being a club where the individual (even Sam

) is way less important that itself.

Are people actually saying they do not want Sonny Bill Williams at Wigan? I appreciate it is a fantasy and will never happen but if it were a possibility people would not want arguably the most complete rugby player of his generation in our team.

Lets not be naive the current team and teams in the glory days were and are not full of selfless individuals they are managed very well and put in a certain structure by good coaches.

See John Dorahay for what happens when the coach is not able to manage his players that were once managed by a different coach.

If people think SBW would not be a huge asset to Wigan RLFC then they are in cloud cuckoo land if people think Tomkins is good then they would be stunned by the likes of SBW, and that is no disrespect to Tomkins, its simply an indication of where SBW is in relation to development and only where Tomkins will be if he goes South.

this is a none arguement sam and SBW are completely different players, with out players like sam sbw wouldn't have players finishing off hes breaks. rugby talent wise sam tomkins is 100 miles infront of sbw but for sheer size and power sbw is 100 miles infront of sam. Like i said i watch SBW every weekend and hes found it so easy to offload alot because there are less in the tackle compaired to league. I think sonny will need alot of conditioning and training to come back to the level required for the NRL. a more fair comparision would be hock and SBW, and i dont think SBW is at the same level as hock at the moment but before SBW was faster and was a monster hitter (but its got him injured alot) lately he looks to have lost alot of speed and isn't the best tackler.

Yes I am actually saying I do not want SBW at the club.

We are progressing extremely well atm, and we don't need players with his attitude thank you very much.

Players with his "attitude"? What exactly would you say is his attitude?

I'm surprised you need this explaining.... Wigan are fuctioning as a team...

It would never happen but if there ever was a chance to sign SBW there is no way you could turn it down. The guys a superstar, regardless of his attitude/how greedy he is.

The game as a whole needs talented players in it here and in Aus, its good to see SBW coming back into the NRL.

I can see peoples point of view re contracts but maybe some of our aussie poster on here could clarify if he is being guided by his legal bods and his agents into making the decisions he has made in recent times

In general you are right, but the way that we have treated the likes of Roberts and Fielden recently indicates that the club is "doing the right thing" by its employees, maybe as a contra-reaction to some of the unscrupulous goings on when Mr Whelan and uncle Mo where in situ.

SBW has the attitude of a winner, just about all great players have attitudes that some see as negative.

It did not stop the likes of Hanley, Edwards, Gregory becoming Wigan legends and also cohabitting in the same team even though they did not always see eye to eye.

At the end of the day the players above and SBW have a common attitude, they are winners and they are also professionals. That can often have personality traits that some do not like but ultimately it is part of what makes them great sportsmen.

To say you would not want arguably the most naturally gifted rugby player on the planet playing for Wigan because of his "attitude" is a strange call in my opinion.

People may or may not know Ellery was one helluva a ruthless person when it came to money and his contracts, Ellery knew his worth and capitalised on it. SBW has done exactly the same or been advised to

In the modern era, Ellery Hanley would scarcely have played RL. He, and probably others like him - Edwards, Lydon, Bell, Iro, etc - would have gone to RU at an early stage, as the Salary Cap would have prevented Wigan, or anyone else in the game, matching the RU money. Offiah, Davies, Inga etc would never have come in the first place.

But I think that SBW's mercenary traits go a little bit deeper than that. The man has proved by his actions that he will walk out on a club mid-contract if someone pays him enough. Not try to renegotiate a contract, as Barrett did and Lima has done - which would be a slightly more gentlemanly approach, but simply walk out and give a callous V-sign to all the fans who adored him.

My concern is that, regardless of his form and ability, we'd never know from one week to the next whether he was going to turn up.

Certainly agree with you re the RU.

Wasnt the reason Ellery walked out of wigan was that the then british version of American football was offering him big money to go and play, yet the arguement with Graham Lowe was just a smokescreen ?

Agree on all points.

The level of teamwork and "togetherness" at Wigan at present is something that we haven't seen for a very long time. That simply cannot be risked for ANY player in my opinion.

Is that so difficult a point to make?

Fortunately I firmly believe SW has the same opinion. If you listen to him when asked about signings, one of the things that he often mentions is whether that player would "fit in".

Spot on,

Much as the idea of SBW in a Wigan shirt appeals, i would rather he was in another shirt being beaten by a Wigan team, or an England/GB team populated by Wigan raised players.

The argument with Graeme Lowe was rumoured to be about the signing of Wally Lewis. Ellery wanted to be top dog.

.....and yet the geatest ever team Wigan have had was full of players who did not see eye to eye with massive ego's.

Most great teams are full of massive ego's and personality clashes but they are usually also ultimate professionals.

It is noted the likes of Goodway was always seen as an individual. Edwards and Gregory always clashing to be top dog, and Hanley spat his dummy regularly.

Do not get confused. Your favourite topic of the salary cap has robbed rugby league of seeing a team littered with massive ego's but in other sports again the best teams are littered with personality clashes and ego's.

As I said earlier it is how a coach manages them that is key and also the fact that regardless of opinions of each other that they are professionals and work towards the ultimate goal of being successful.

I think when Wane talks about fitting in it is more to do with the systems rather than the concept that they are "together" in any other way than wanting to be successful.

Togetherness is something I associate teams that overachieve/are at the lower end of the table but are capable of causing the odd upset eg Wakefield Trinity or Wimbledon in the 80's.

Give me a team of players that do not get along but are ultimate professionals every time.

You are missing the point.

The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

I agree hence I do not think it would be unreasonable to sign a player who is one of the most talented players of his generation because of speculation about his personality.

If it were just speculation then I would be more inclined to agree with you.

But is it the sign of an ultimate professional to keep on marketing himself to the highest bidder regardless of whatever deal he's just signed?

Surely there comes a point where a professional should say "I've now been paid to do a job, so I'll do it", not just keep on trying to find someone else who'll pay him even more.

The tearing up of his last NRL deal signified to me that the guy - at least in terms of his attitude - is very far from being a model professional.

Speculation or not the fact is you do not have to be well liked or even liked at all to be a massive asset to a team.

I would wager while some fans have an slightly amateurish mentality when it comes to these issues, if you offerered SBW to any coach of any team in league or union they would take him on the spot. You do not turn down world class players and thar is the bottom line.

Spot on....Until he up's and leaves, cause he gets a better offer. Sorry i have an amateur outlook.

The Australians have weathered the raids from Union and come out stronger. They have focussed on their domestic treasure - State of Origin - and not preoccupied themselves with spreading the game to non league areas with hair brained schemes. The outcome is the NRL is able to up its rates and compete happily for rugby players with Union, whilst here in England we don't seem to have a viable plan to emulate their success.

SBW the player rather than the person is the point of this thread. OK there are some peculiarities concerning his form in terms of contracts and agreements, but it shows where NRL is today from a point in the late 90's when their game was split down the middle and in serious trouble. Somewhere in there, there is a business model and it has to be worth looking at.