But there's no guarantees in coaching. Look at Potter and Catalans, Saints and Bradford. At Cats, he was seen as a star coach getting good results out of a mid-table side. At Saints he was generally seen as okish with a top side, but not what we'd hoped. At Bradford the results have been poor with a mid-table side again. There's a lot more examples of that sort of randomness than there are of unstinting success.

Some people decided that Powell shouldn't be coach before a game had been played, and have spent all season bitching about him to justify that pre-judgment. But the table doesn't lie. We are where we'd expect to be, given our squad. Maybe a little better than we should expect. Next year, if the squad is better, I'll expect more. If those people calling for POwell's head can put their hands on their hearts and point to the team above us in the table with a worse squad than ours, then by all means let's have a discussion. You'll be looking a long time.

It's not so much the fact that we lose, its the despicable, spineless and unmotivated way we lose, and frankly that has to come down to the coach. The squad is poor, but I expect the team to play as any professional team would. Powell has no coaching acumen and no means of motivating the team, leading to massive and regular hidings.

RH, I appreciate you have an allegance to Powell from your Souths connection, but to put it bluntly, he is not up to the job and should be replaced.

I may be wrong here with this comment as i be the first to hold my hand up and admit i don't know much about coaching and more then willing to listen to those on here who have.

But i cant help sometimes think no matter the coach you can only play with whats in front of you.
Take Tony Smith for example, when he was at Hudd's he couldn't buy a win with the squad he had there. But when he went to Leeds and the stars he had in that squad,well all know what happened there . So he gets the GB job and he couldn't get that to work with the players he picked,so he jumped ship and went to Wire and an open check book and you can see the results there what buying quaintly can give you so can only make the coach's job easier.

another example and this time with us was John Monie. when he was at Wigan with a team of stars he couldnt put a foot wrong, but he comes to us with a squad well lets admit was on a par if not worse then what we have now and he couldnt get them to performance as a unit.

I stil think that in time Rob Powell could become a good coach,just not yet he needs another season or two under someone whos been around abit. i.e. Noble or Morgan. Failing that may be another coach from Aus. I dont much about them but say of the top of my head someone like Ricky Stuart..

It's not about loyalty, it's about being reasonable. If we had a squad which was a similar value to teams well above us in the table, but were still where we are, then yes, I think it's fair to blame the coach. I think if I was a Bradford fan, or a Hull or Hull KR fan, or especially a Leeds fan, this year, I'd be asking questions about the coach, as all four clubs are performing below their respective squad values. I'd be very happy with the coach at Castleford or Huddersfield, as they're clearly outperforming their squad value. The rest are all about where you'd expect them to be.

If we give a bloke a formula 1 car and ask him to win a race, we can expect him to do well and hold him accountable if he doesn't. If we give a bloke in the same race a go-kart with no wheels, then it seems a bit OTT to me to be calling for his head when he only beats the blokes with the shopping trolley and the Lada.

I quite enjoyed that analogy.

You make sense to me, Roy, particularly in regards to Cas. They've done brilliantly this year with the squad thay've got available.

Hudds have done well too, but I would guess there's been a little more money spent there.

PC Plum makes more sense to me.

So according to some of the above arguments the coach makes absolutely no difference, it`s purely down to the strength of the squad. May as well get rid of him then and spend his wages on buying better players.....once we have a good but rudderless side we can then think about getting a coach!!!!

The quality of the team and the coach are inextricably linked. We are having a clear out of our players in order to improve our lot both on and off the pitch, but for some reason the coach (who was part of the failed BM regime) should be ring-fenced?

Lets not kid ourselves, we are fortunate that Wakey and Cru both had points deducted and have had their fair share of problems on and off the pitch, otherwise we would be languishing at the foot of the table......because we are as bad as Wakey and Cru is no reason to retain our coach and give him another go.

Conversely, if we gave Jano Trulli, this years McLaren MP4/26, but asked a really knowledgeable supporter of F1 who had no racing experience to act as chief strategist, would he become world champion? would Martin Whitmarsh be looking to replace the driver or the strategist at the end of the season if he didn't win it?

Unfortunately, because I'm sure this is a great analogy too, I don't follow motor racing, so I have literally no idea what you just said.

I didn't say that the coach makes no difference. In fact, if you re-read what I wrote, I was saying that the squad has actually performed above expectations based on monetary value. That extra can be attributed to the coach, and it's a positive impact. Likewise, I think you've got to give credit to Matterson and Brown for their input at Cas and Hudds. I think McDermott is also making a difference at Leeds in exactly the same way he made a difference to Quins - negatively. Coaches do matter.

What I'm saying, and I'm probably not saying it clearly enough, is that a coach can make a difference, but only at the margins. Wayne Bennett could coach Quins this year, and they would not finish higher than 11th. If McDermott coached them, or McNamara, then it's arguable they wouldn't even have got those 5 wins. Likewise, if Powell was coaching Wigan or Saints this year, they'd still finish in the top 4. Coaches make the difference, but they can't turn a Lada into a Ferrarri, they can only make the Lada go a bit faster or slower.

SL is a banded competition, and those bands are decided by salary cap spend and squad quality. You have the front runners - Saints, Wigan, Warrington, Huddersfield, Leeds (should be). Then the middle - Hull, Hull KR, Catalans, Bradford. Then the bottom - Cas, Salford, Wakey, Crusaders, Quins. Realistically, each club is in competition with its peers for finishing positions within their group. Quins competition is with their fellow bottom-dwellers. We all know this, as does everyone in RL - that's why everyone describes a win by any of the bottom clubs over the top clubs as a shock. And by that yardstick, it's not been a bad season - the smallest budget and weakest squad in the competition, but not the worst results. That's a small win. Likewise, if I was Iestyn Harris or John Kear, I'd be wondering why I didn't do much better than Quins.

The only possible justification for demanding the head of the coach of Quins (or Crusaders, or Wakey) is if you think that they had a squad which could and should have done better. Given that Quins have done better than Crusaders and the same as Wakey, I think that's a harsh judgment to make. If you think Powell has underperformed this year as a coach, then you are essentially arguing that Quins should have done better than clubs with much larger budgets and much stronger playing rosters. That seems to me to be a bit irrational. I guess fans, by their very nature, tend towards irrational hopes for their clubs. But it's still irrational.

Roy

.

You will always

with some on here.

a debate board, and while Mr H is probably one of the most respected posters around the gaff, it doesn't mean his views cannot be challenged, or debated with, or even his opinions not accepted.

:s9cuwm3f

My analogy was based on beach volleyball









I guess the point most are making is that if we accept your pound for pound analysis of Rob for this season [which makes perfect sense, does that mean that if ig if the club were deciding to beef up the playing roster somewhat for the following season, Rob should remain as head coach, or be replaced by a more experienced coach from the level say of your middle band of clubs capability?'"

So your definition of success for Quins RL is finishing above bottom ?

FWIW here are the records of our coaches in the SL era

[urlhttp://www.rugbyleagueproject.org/teams/Harlequins_RL/coaches.html[/url

This year, yes. At the start of the season, I thought that looking at the squad, Quins would finish rock bottom this year. If I'd known that Purdham would spend so much of the season injured, I might have put money on it, as he's a significant portion of Quins' playing value.

I understand why Quins fans feel disappointed. I've watched a couple of games live this year, and a couple on the TV, and they were woeful. But clearly, if anyone said at the start of the year that the realstic expectation was regularly beating the likes of Saints/Wigan, then they'd have been insane. If they'd said they expected to finish above the likes of Hull, Catalans, Bradford, they'd have been hugely optimistic. If they'd said that they hoped to do better than Crusaders, Wakey and maybe Salford (who've had their best season in years, btw), then that would have seemed reasonable. Tonight's results won't help matters. But I think that if anyone genuinely expected that this Quins squad would prove better over the season than any club save their fellow bottom dwellers, then they'd have been optimistic/hopeful beyond reason. Every year I hope Saints will win the double, but I never expected it this year, because Wigan and Warrington are clearly better than us this year. So I won't be calling for Simmons to be sacked after his first year if we don't lift silverware and finish outside the top 2 for the first time in 7 years. Maybe that means I'm not as passionate as I used to be, or maybe it means I'm just more realistic than I used to be !


Your link is very interesting, but it's not relevant at all. What Reg Bowden or Tony Rae did with their teams can't be compared to what any other coach did with their entirely different teams, playing against other entirely different teams.

We effectively are bottom so even by your own criteria I don't see how Powell can be classed as a success.

The point of the link is to highlight that (admittedly only based on this season's data) Powell has an even worse win % than McDermott did. However, that is hardly a surprise.

Its not considering Mac had an arguably stronger squad at his disposal

The fact is he has a worse win % than McDermott. Part of that may be due to a worse sqaud but that does not make Powell a success.

Looking at our team from last night:

Harlequins RL: Dorn, Melling, Clubb, O'Callaghan, Calderwood, Sarginson, Gale, Temata, Randall, Ward, Purdham, Mitchell, Bailey.

Replacements: Krasniqi, Golden, Williams, Burnett.

I don't actually think it is THAT bad, apart from being slightly weak in the front row. I think most of those players would get games for other SL sides without much difficuluty. Powell just can't get anything out of them.

I disagree. This is going to be brutal, but from the perspective of someone whose main club is Saints, but who has a loyalty to London RL, let's look at that squad.

Dorn - end of his career, didn't get contract at bottom group club Cas because they wanted to move up to middle (as they have)
Melling - Co-op Champ player
Clubb - overweight, unfit defensive turnstile who is Quins best player nevertheless. Could get in a mid-table side, but not top 4.
O'Callaghan - Co-op Champ player
Calderwood - rejected from pretty much every other SL club. Lost pace after injury. Needs to retire.
Sarginson - Could develop into a good player, but far too early to tell
Gale - mid-table standard, which is why he's going to a mid-table club next year
Temata - sub-NRL player of Brisbane local comp standard, also past it now
Randall - bottom 4 standard SL player
Ward - the sort of prop who used to ply his trade by moving between the relegated and promoted clubs
Purdham - was once a very good player, but injury has finished him. No other club would touch him now.
Mitchell - Co-op Champ player
Bailey - Co-op Champ player

Krasniqi - At present, Co-op Champ player. It's early days for him, as props usually have a bit more time to come good.
Golden - Co-op Champ player
Williams - Co-op Champ player
Burnett - can't get a game for Hull, who are having a bad season as a mid-table side

That's a very weak squad. As a Saints fan, I'd laugh at the idea of any of them playing for Saints. If I were a Hull fan, I might consider Clubb and Gale. If I were a Wakey fan, I could be persuaded to take Randall as a filler.

Sorry. That sounds terrible, and it's not my intention to mindlessly knock the team. But we have to be realistic about what talent is there. I think the way to look at it is that when Crusaders announced they were folding, there were instantly half a dozen of their players sought out and signed by other clubs. If Quins did the same, only Clubb, Gale and possibly Randall might still have jobs in SL.

Generally, I'm fairly surprised they've got 5 wins.

And yet you think Powell is a SL quality coach. He is probably not even Co-op champ.

What I think is that Quins have performed about as well - and possibly better - than any reasonable person would have expected themto perform over the course of the season. You can believe that's down to the coach, or the players, or a combination of the two. I suppose it's possible I could have coached them and they'd have still fluked 5 wins. Or maybe you could have coached them and they'd have got hammered by 100 points in every game. But I suspect that the 5 wins and a draw they did get would be unlikely to have occurred if either of us were coaching them.

You believe that RP has not coached Quins effectively this year. The only evidence on which such an opinion could be based would be that Quins failed to perform as they should reasonably have expected to perform. So, if you genuinely believe that Quins have a better squad than other teams in SL, then you can legitimately believe that their failure to finish above those teams could be down to weak coaching. Personally, I don't believe that Quins have a better squad than any other team, so I don't see how I can blame the coach for the fact that they've had such a poor season.

Maybe that difference of opinion between you and I is due to the fact that as a Saints fan first, and Quins second, I'm a bit more detached and dispassionate about Quins chances of onfield success. You thought they'd do better, so are disappointed and looking for reasons why they didn't. I thought they'd do as they have, and hope they'll strengthen the squad next year and try to improve their position.

I tell you what, according to Roy Haggerty's standards, there are a hell of a lot of Co-op Championship standard players currently stealing a living in Super League.