Catalans 1,136
Salford 1,517
Wakefield 1,887
Huddersfield 1,800 (2nd game in London 2001)
Castleford 1,810
HKR 1,837
Widnes 2,117
Hull FC 1,865
Wire 2,261
Bradford 1,441
Leeds 2,377
Saints 2,839
Wigan 3,200 (2nd game in London 2007)

of the above 13 teams that will visit us in 2014, Gus has delivered 11 LOWEST ever attendances and in the case of the other 2, second lowest attendances, only beaten by years when the away fans had to make 2 trips.

With no prospect of AK doing "deals" to get crowds up, I suspect Gus may well stand a chance of getting the Wigan and Hudds crowds to add to his CV of shame!

Why don;t you back this up with figures to show how much costs TK has taken on, how much money he will recieve and how many fans he needs through the door to make money.

It's very convenient to claim TK has nothing riding on this but until I see proof then this is hot air to support an agenda.

I listened to Ians pubcast as you suggested and he certainly does not portray the situation with the same negativity that you choose to. If fact he says TK is taking a risk, which is contrary to your claim.

The number through the door will ultimately determine whether the money men see a future. Don't come and as you may as well wave goodbye now instead of gloating over the corpse.

What a strange thing to say?
London Broncos fans want the Hive packed...rammed 13 times this year and they want AK so impressed he pumps 7 figures into the club in 2015 and gets them straight back into SL. We want another 4,000 seats, all full again in 2015 giving us a 120k over the season and him 2.5 million in ticket revenue and the same again over the bar and in the shops. We want a successful club.

Alas, I suspect a 2k average and no more broncos (at the hive) is what we'll actually get.

ooohh!! look!!
Broncos could actually do worse.

I don't think anyone wants to see this and we should be aiming to avoid further shame. regardless of whether this Gus guy is involved

That to me is what is so stupid about the whole deal. Surely it should be the Broncos who should be getting the fans in and the only influence they now have on that is team performance which all the experts agree will be poop this year.

AK has a new FULL TIME paying tenant at a facility that he let out for the occasional party and corporate 5 a side event.
He also has a new reason to open the Hive to the public at a score a pop 13 times this year. Those that pay to get in will also spend money in his bars and restaurants as well as in his shop.
He has also received funding from the RFL to market these 13 events, where he keeps the ticketing, bar, restaurant and shop takings.

I'm risk averse......but that is risk free.

If it goes wrong, it goes wrong for the Broncos. AK has cash in the bank.......


BTW, this attitude from Barnet fans of "if you don't come to games, it's your own fault when it fails" is nothing new. It has been the attitude of David Hughes since 2008 (and before probably)....do you need me to go over how that's panned out for us?

Nobody knows we exist. Seriously....2006-2013 at Twickenham and no effort was made to let people know we existed.


For the record, there is an RFL guy on loan to the club/hive on facebook and twitter for the club at the moment.....the first home game is in 9 days time and the crux of the marketing by Barnet FC/The Hive to date is an offer on their website........this isn't going to end well!

but as I have shown.......there is no negative consequence for AK or the Hive if the fans don't turn up. If we average 2k this year, he'll bank 1 million pounds in tickets and residuals, + his RFL marketing money, + the rent on Underhill and administration charges.......worst case scenario for his is.....actually, there isn't one!

So no figures then, how unlike you

Well I'm glad to hear it had nothing to do with the dross served up on the pitch.

So the figures are 1 + 1 + Errm... - Errmmm.. = Happy Days



Just admit you don't know

We finished on 12 points with 5 wins and 2 draws last year....we had 2 more wins in 2004 and one les draw to finish on 15 points but also had 1,247 MORE fans per home game...or 56% if you like.
In Y2K we had 12 points from 6 wins.....and 1,217 more fans per game, or 55% if you like.
YBG (year before gus) we got 2 more points and still had 1,167 more fans per game or 52% if you like

A winning team is a massive help..........but don't hide behind a losing one to explain away crap crowds and even worse PR/Marketing!

what do you mean "admit I don't know" Know what?
I know that AK is investing nothing....nada, not a brass farthing in the club in 2014 but is Receiving rent, ticket and shop revenues and a marketing budget from the RFL.
I don't care if it all comes to a total income of 56p....it would be 56p more than he is investing in the London Broncos. THAT'S THE PERTINENT POINT!

As for exact facts and figures.....I may get them eventually.......whether I choose to share them with you as I have done with other information I am sent is another matter, given how defensive you've become over any questioning regarding AK.
For the record, I'll repeat this just for you. I say well done to AK and good on him.....he has a cracking deal for 2014 and will make money. The amount of money he makes though, will dictate his involvement past this year..

That's the point, you cannot even say that with confidence. There is a level of investment required here that TK will need to get back through ticket receipts. How much the charges from the online ticketing, automated turnstyle software, additional staff, wear and tear etc costs and how much he is charging for Underhill or receiving for Admin are all unknowns to you so you are making unsupported claims with insufficent information. As for marketing, he gets it he spends it so I don't see much profit to be had there unless you are suggesting he will be keeping some of the RFL money to one side.


I am no lover of TK for reasons I wont go into, but I am opposed to the posting of so called facts using insufficent or incorrect information. This is why we clashed yesterday over your travel observations.

Hadn't realised I was hiding, just perhaps making a point you had somehow managed to overlook in your statement. Perhaps the preceding few years of finishing nearly last and starting each year with a resounding wimper added to the decline, coupled with the broader economy and I'm quite happy to agree with you a woeful lack of marketing and direction.

I can say it with 100% confidence. AK is not investing a brass farthing in the London Broncos this year. See...I said it again, confidently



These are running and development costs. Unless London Broncos take the ticketing software with them when they go, they are investments into his facility. Wear and tear is 13 extra days use of the stadium...it is covered by normal sporting clubs when setting ticket prices, along with depreciation costs too.



Unknowns they are, but as I said, they are INCOMES with no OUTGOINGS other than the usual running costs. New software is for the Hive......not for the Broncos and I have explained how ticketing is priced to accommodate all of the residual overheads.



so you dispute my claim that if the ticket revenue + residuals in the bar, shop and restaurants came to 56p it is 56p more than AK is investing in the Broncos?


RFL staff member posting on twitter, the club site and facebook and Barnet FC offering a family ticket for 30 quid is not marketing.....neither is announcing the Broncos at half time at an FC game....nor is asking volunteers to leaflet the borough. I'll let you know when he starts to market the club using the FL funds...


I'm not not a fan of the guy....he come across a straight talking salesman and that I like.

See my travel advice has become an observation now

People through the turnstyles have not paid for Broncos team for a long time. All ticket revenue has done is determine how much money DH finds out of his own pocket and he has clearly had enough of signing a blank cheque each year. I believe what he and the RFL have done is fix his investment at a level that he is happy to make for the time being.
It is also a misconception in terms of if Broncos stay at the have then the investment made in the hive to accommodate them will have been to the benefit to the Broncos and therefore I would deem it an investment in the Broncos. Afterall it's not much good to the Hive without the Broncos.



I was referring to initial up front set-up costs that need to be met before Broncos can use the Hive. Doesnt matter whether Broncos take it with them as it is still a cost to be met that wouldn't need to be covered if Broncos didnt come .


Again new software not required if Broncos don't come and pretty much useless afterwards and again ticket pricing to support what level of support? 2? 3? 4000? that was my point, we cannot claim that TK is quids in and does not need to market the Broncos because we don't know what attendance he requires to break even. If anything he has more interest in getting bums on seats than those administering the Broncos before as it determines his bottom line.

I have no interest in arguing what does or does not constitute marketing, it's a budget to be spent and I'll let others work out whether they think it worked.


Yes I allowed you your pedantry. Makes no odds to me

I said

you responded...


Waffle that doesn't counter my assertion above....how much DH subs the club is not under discussion, but the level of financial investment from AK in 2014 is.

You continue....

What investment?
ah...


Nope...still not sure of the investment you're on about....



New software very much required. Ticketing at Barnet FC has been a bone of contention between the club and the fans....don't lump the software upgrade on us. It was coming anyway.



.....50% of 2013 average attendance at a discounted rate of 15 quid a ticket will deliver AK 215,000 quid........if 10% of those fans buy a replica shirt, there's another 75k.....if they buy a beer and a burger each, there's another 95k......I doubt very much I'll be out shaking a bucket for AK in the near future.


1,500...that's the break even figure for Barnet FC........and with the Broncos, he's not paying the players salaries!


And the RFL have PAID him to market the club.......he is QUIDS IN!



My chosen mastermind subject. Marketing the London SL club 1997-2013. 2,213 is the average from last year......anything below 3k this year is a failure, because whatever it is in 2014, it will dip back down in 2015.


No.....I observed, you called it advice and have back-peddled nicely. Good on you !

Ahh but it is, because the reason you are were you are now is that People through the door did'nt even cover admin, rent and marketing costs let alone contributing to the player budget. As you have shown yourself TV and DH were putting over £3m a year in to cover that.



Nope the software for Barnet to operate was installed last year and cost a pretty packet. The changes to incorporate Broncos will in no way enhance the way they work for Barnet fans and the problems that some have using the scanners will still be in evidence in 2 weeks time.

Again this is purely one example to show there clearly are costs involved in setting up the operation from virtually scratch and it's not as simple as walking into your existing staff and doubling their workload, that you try to pick only operating costs to determine whether TK makes money is laughable when the Broncos turned up on the doorstep with nothing.

I can only guess at these costs but looking from the outside right now and trying to guess some of the problems encountered.
I think it's fairly clear that information that should've been passed onto the Hive hasn't been made available.
That the Bronco website is proving a pig to get permissions and update with the previous people who ran the site gone, it would not surprise me in the slightest if at some point the site is replaced with one that Hive staff are more familiar with and find easier to maintain.
The Hive does not have space for a Broncos shop to sell merchandise so there will be work involved in either bringing in a portacabin next to the ticket office in the car park or restructure the reception and bar.

I understand that you can make up figures to try to justify your argument and try to focus on minutiae to avoid the point of my argument and that is you do not know the figures and can only guess at what level of risk TK is taking, one that a person close to proceedings calls 'considerable' and TK does have a vested interest in maximising the number of fans who come despite your assertions to the contrary.
We clearly view investment in a different light, I don't see what DH has done as investment, that's just throwing money away and has little\no long term benefit. You don't see TK building an infrastructure for Broncos to stay at the hive as investment, but to me that it is money spent to allow Broncos to survive in a sustainable way in the future and therefore is a valuable investment in the Broncos as an entity, Yes TK benefits but so do Broncos and without it Broncos are gone. But I digress again and drop to your level of trying to breakdown an argument to avoid the key point and that is we do not know TK's profit\loss to say that by doing nothing he will make money and therefore does not care if people come.

Does it really matter what you think is success or failure in terms of attendance? The point is whether the money men decide it is a success or not and keep Broncos breathing. This brings me back to the original point that the number of fans that turn up will determine whether Broncos exists and if TK is interested in taking on the Broncos to some degree then he has a keen interest in maximising how many turn up.

I know you like to paint TK as pocketting cash but I think TK's lease conditions for the Hive clearly say otherwise. If TK makes money out of this venture then I repeat it will be to improve the Hive and this will make it more viable as a home for the Broncos. Yes his baby will grow and yes he will take pride in what he has acheived but the Hive remains what it is and the local council check regularly to ensure he isn't breaching the terms of his lease (as a few are already claiming).

The net effect of all this is hopefully both Barnet and Broncos become sustainable and don't need to rely on money men to prop them up.
That the Hive does not have the capacity to hold Broncos largest crowds from last year must be a worry going forwards and will certainly hamper what the average attendances could be if Broncos are to be successful at the Hive going forwards

I will try an analogy from my own work knowledge to show how I see this.
We have 200 customers and for each of those customers part of their role is to receive an admin grant to do work for the government, part of the work they do includes payment for the services offered. Over recent years of austerity the government has been cutting back the grant to the point were our customers have to either reduce their costs and provide a poorer service or find the missing money from elsewhere to cover the cost of maintaining the same or better service.
We offer our customers a managed service where they give us the admin grant and we run the service for them. Providing the service we provide is good they no longer care whether we make money from the grant we receive as they are fulfilling their remit, don't have to find money to prop up the service and don't have to deal with complaints about the service if it isnt working.
We run their service out of 3 datacentres, with automated software doing the bulk of the work and monitoring for faults and problems that require individual attention and the public accessing the system through a cloud based solution. By lowering the cost base and maximising use of the service in order to receive payment for the services offered we are able to make a profit.
As far as I am concerned Broncos have given TK a managed service. It is upto TK to manage the service as efficently and effectively as possible to ensure he doesnt make a loss and that Broncos fans receive the best service he can offer.

You want to claim their is no risk involved and TK is printing money but in our business there are plenty of inital costs, often unforeseen that mean any return on investment is not immediately realised and often we make a loss on a service in the first year.




As far as I am concerned you used google to offer ADVICE as to whether the posters travel times were much different.
If you want to argue over something this trivial to avoid the point then go ahead, it just makes you look silly.
Whether you want to call it an observation is no skin off my nose but it clearly grates you as it's obviously more important for you to try and be seen to be correct than be honest and say yep the facts I used to support my point were false because I didn't know what I was talking about..

Ok TK doesn't have to invest a brass farthing, is running a no brainer as a business man BUT it's in HIS interest to have higher attendances, more people in the ground is more people drinking beer/coffee, eating pies and crisps, buying shirts etc. I'm sure he won't just sit in his ivory towers laughing at the rfl and pocketing the rl dollar, he'll want to capitalise on this surely, if not he's a pretty mickey mouse business man.

Agreed

Seconded

Fully agree, but I think discussions are still going ahead to a complete buy out! and there was some talk of another interested party, but that has gone quiet over the past few days. It seems DH just wants to get out! and who would blame him, more so if he took any notice of some here on this forum, I am sure any Northern club would be glad of David if he still wants to be involved.

There's a thought.

Let him finish the job at Bradford & then there's only one relegation place to contend with.

If we had any more Mickey Mouse business men on board we'd qualify as Euro Disney UK expansion.

At least it will keep the kids entertained