Leeds' back 5 in their semi win were : Webb, Jones-Bishop, Hardaker, Ablett and Hall. That's probably a better line-up that the Saints back 5, and I say that as a Saints fan. Webb is currently the form fullback after Tomkins. Jones-Bishop would start ahead of any winger at Saints, and probably ahead of Riley at Wire. Hall is the best winger in the competition at present, although you could argue Monaghan was better early in the season. Hardaker and Ablett are better than Joel Tomkins at Wigan, although I think Atkins and Bridge have been on better form than them, they were well-matched this weekend.

As for Ablett playing in the centres; in the first instance Wigan also play a second row in the centres - Joel Tomkins, and Saints also use Soliola interchangably, as they used to do with Gilmour and Huddersfield still do on occasion, so I don't see why Ablett being a second row in any way reduces the quality of the Leeds back line. I'd rather have him at centre than any of the centres from most of the teams in SL. In the second instance, it seems inconsistent to me to scoff at the folly of playing a second-row in the centres, while at the same time praising the coach who made that decision. If you think that second-rowers shouldn't ever be played at centre, then I would merely disagree, and point out that they have been for decades, under all sorts of coaches and at all sorts of clubs.

You also seem to miss my point about the halves. You do know that halves are not three-quarters ? Which is why I referred to the threequarters being comparable, but noted that Leeds' halfbacks were not comprable to Wire's. Wire's halfbacks have been far and away the most effective halfback combination this year, which is one of the reasons why they finished top.

So on this thread, so far, the guy who is accusing others of having no knowledge of rugby league is scoffing at a tactic which is not only commonly used at all levels of the game, but is also effective, and has been for decades, while his main supporter can't seem to tell the difference between halves and threequarters ?

I think before throwing around accusations of people not understanding the game, you both might want to check what you write first.

Happy to help.

Webb is past it, most Leeds fans want rid of him, and I agree with them. Jones-Bishop is an excellent player. Hardaker has only played a handful of games in Super League. Ablett is a second rower who has been playing excellently at centre, a very shrewd move by McDermott, that is for sure. Where was I "scoffing" at any tactic?

You are getting paranoid and making things up now. You can write as long a post as you like, Ablett is a second rower and only playing in the centres because Watkins isn't fit.

Leeds half backs might not be up the standards of Warrington's, funny how they completely outplayed them though on Friday night? Another piece of McDermott's game plan that he got absolutely spot on, when it mattered.

Still laughing at McDermott being labelled a "lucky manager", pmsl. Is Royce Simmons a lucky manager too?

Arhh got it Roy lets play on words if we cant use possibly as a copout. To your credit and in my defence I did read three quarters as backs but your knew that anyway didnt you. That said it did strengthen a very weak comeback.

Its interesting that all of your comparisons use the weakness from one or another of the top clubs-I suspect this does strengthen your argument if the reader knows little about the game

Fair play to McDermott, he's got his team to two finals.

However I remember sitting next to a certain Dave Lister at Wembley this year, and he wasn't very happy with how they played for the vast majority of that game. Leeds were dreadful in the first half and paid the price for it, against a Wigan team who played well below par and other teams in the top six would have beaten.

The 'fact' remains we did the double over Leeds this season, and we all know these things can happen but the limitations of that Leeds team were laid bare for all to see. There's no luck involved in their excellent play-off run, that is just a team hitting its stride at just the right time and they deserve credit for that. But it is fanciful to suggest that we had 'good times' under McDermott. We didn't, and as poor as some of the peformances under Powell were this season, I still feel slightly more optimistic now than I did 2 years or even 12 months ago, after wearying campaigns watching dismal rugby produced under McDermott, hamstrung as he was by external factors.

I don't think he's an especially imaginative coach, and I don't think he's very good with people. But if he wins a grand final, fair play to him, he's proved a few people wrong but it doesn't change his record at Quins - which was, in most people's eyes, a poor one especially in his last two years.

his drivel post match comments and his general could not give a f**k attitude did more damage to supporters of this club than most other things over the previous 2 seasons to this one gone.

Is Powell a better coach? probably not, but am I happy burger king left? over the moon harry.

"Could not give a f**k attitude" ? Interesting. And they say cultures in business often come from the top down... I don't agree with your assertion, but I wouldn't blame him for not caring when the club is run in such a shabby fashion. He will have been desperate to get out and put his skills to good use, and Leeds provided that platform for him. He has turned a team around this season - the performance against Warrington was the best I have seen for years - perhaps it is the climax of their excellent run at the end of the season, but regardless, it has been mastery from McDermott.

You think post match comments and a bad attitude have irritated fans more than ritual humpings by below average sides, usually by a hefty score? Come off it.

When I watch Leeds I see they like to throw the ball around. I never remember Quins playing like this under Mac. Didnt Quins fans complain it was too boring under his coaching spell?

If i remember right his last 8 games Quins did throw it around usually to the opposition. Wakefield away anyone



Ps I liked Mac as a person and His love of the junior set up was there for all too see.

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 606418.stm ""We certainly wouldn't be going to a Grand Final without his efforts," Gary Hetherington told BBC Radio Leeds. "The appointment of Brian McDermott has been one of the best moves I've made in my 15 years at the club," he added. "I've made some good ones and some not so good ones. But I think the appointment of Brian in what was a very tricky time in the club's transformation has been justified."

news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 606418.stm ""We certainly wouldn't be going to a Grand Final without his efforts," Gary Hetherington told BBC Radio Leeds. "The appointment of Brian McDermott has been one of the best moves I've made in my 15 years at the club," he added. "I've made some good ones and some not so good ones. But I think the appointment of Brian in what was a very tricky time in the club's transformation has been justified."

Yes, and then they started throwing it about, with dire consequences because few of the players had the necessary ball handling skills.

But you're right, for a time our games were boring in the extreme.

Sole reason? no, anymore than any other one single daft thing the club has done over the past 5 years, but as a part of the combination of issues, yeah I do think Mc's time in charge or at least the last 2 seasons, certainly didn't help keep bums on seats.

Hindsight and the passing of time always help these assessments, but for me personally, I am glad he left, and am ambivilent as to how he proceeds from here.

I don't know what it says about the finalists at the weekend but we did the double over one and beat the other at home! Maybe there is not so big a gap for us to bridge after all!

oh and another thought a new song for next season : "If Chase can play for England so can Dorn"!

I cant imagine Dorn replacing Tomkins at 1 or Chase at 6/7

McBanana said there were others similar to Chase eligable that he had looked at in our game

I don't know why this is such a big story. Australia and NZ have been playing guys from other countries for years.

said it many times when everyone was slagging him off down here
Whats the point in playing an open flowing game moving the ball about when the players cannot keep hold of the bloody thing!
Why did we play boring rugby, probably down to the coach telling em to try and keep hold of the ball rather than dropping it
The players did not perform! they could not do the basics, at this level the coach cannot be blamed for that, it should already been there
Think he has proven his coaching ability, no-one expected leeds to do anything this year because apparently they are " a team in transistion" well they have gone against all expectation
Give the bloke his due and say well done

its interesting that "chump" chase been voted player of the year by the rl world up here

How many of "his" players have got them there? Sorry Listy, but the team that have got them to the GF is not one he built and neither is it one that plays in any manner like Quins teams played under him.



IMO it remains to be seen......once a few more of the decent players have been replaced with second row forwards, then we will see where Mac sits in the pecking of order of ESL coaches.

2002 was the last time Leeds conceded over 600 points in a regular season, so at least his defensive coaching hasn't changed.

A good analogy would be when Derby County won the old Football League in the mid seventies under Dave MacKay after Brian Clough had been sacked under strange circumstances (it was always rumoured that the Derby board had effectively been ordered to fire Clough by the FL and FA) - it was Clough's team and tactics.

I can't understand all this vitriol directed at Brian Mac. Whether he is a great coach or not I don't know but what I do know is that he worked really hard down here, and he wanted the best for this club.

I agree his personality isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I spoke to him a lot over the years and he was always really great with me (I remember him coming to sit with us on the train back from a HKR game which I reckon a lot of people in his position wouldn't have done).

Brian also turned up at the Cumbria/England game to support the Purdham fund, which I thought was a credit to him (only other person of note I saw there was Stevo).

I guess the accessibility we have to our players and coaches can make things a bit tricky when you happen to have a dour Yorkshire personality. I doubt that Leeds fans get to talk to the Leeds coach (probably just as well, considering how their early season went!).

Anyway, I 'm very glad that BMac has had some success and I'm sure he will always support this club when he can.

Playing, in the words of Tracy Jordan, 'devils avocado here Larry' - isn't this to his credit? He inherited a team that many people thought was on its way down, with some of their own fans writing him off as well as some of the young players coming through. Yet they've made two major finals with a team he didn't really have much say in shaping. Who knows, he might privately think half of them are useless.

Whose side are you on here?!?

Neither. I don't feel one way or the other about Mac going to Leeds, I am satisfied that Powell gets another year to give SL coaching a go and I don't happen to believe McDermott would have done any better this season with the squad that we had.

well said ..................................Mate