I think it has been mentioned many times before but for me rugby league is 'dying' at every level - but more so in the championships.

Superleague for me is not moving forward - a couple of years ago i'd watch most games on Sky, but now I watch very few. I know quite a few people who have also lost interest.

However my main concern is for the championships - i presume its because of the no promotion/relegation (maybe a stato can have a look) - but some of the attendances are shocking. How are the clubs managing to survive from crowds of 300/600/900?! These are clubs that used to get thousands. If the money backer pulls out then I fear that even more clubs are going to go out of business.

Not that long ago (2000ish) we'd see large away followings at Hilton Park - not anymore. We'd also see healthy crowds at most games - no longer the case.

For me there needs to be a change in the league structures (which I might favour as it would benefit us!).

For me Super League should be made to 16 teams - at the moment that would probably include us and Halifax - as I presume we'd fulfill the criteria or more of the criteria than other clubs (although i'd rather have it simply on sporting performance - the best teams goes up and the worst SL team is relegated!). The SL would then play each other twice home and away and then have a play off for top 6. For me one of the problems is the number of games involving the same teams - how many times have wigan played saints - some seasons they've probably played 5 times!

Yes Leigh and Halifax, maybe Widnes, would be poor at first - but at least it'll freshen up the competition and truly expand the game as you'll have two more professional teams with two youth set ups.

Then for me the Championship should just be one league - there aren't enough games for the clubs to survive at present. Or the other option is to see if any clubs could join Championship 1.

I do fear for us and Halifax - if we aren't awarded a SL place next time round then I presume that support would fade away. If we continue to play good rugby then that would satisfy most but the problem is that any decent players will simply be poached by SL teams and you can't blame anyone for wanting to play full time in SL. That will also apply to Millward if he stays and continues his good work.

I'm not sure what others think but i honestly fear not just for our future but the future of rugby league outside of SL - i hope that things change for the better and soon.

Don't see how a profitable sport is dying.
I can't remember that many huge away followings at Hilton Park. Widnes in the playoffs and Warrington in Super League, apart from that, very few.
In the 90s we got all time low crowds of less than 1000 and in the mid 90s 1500 was a decent crowd.
I do agree on a league structure change, but instead of expanding SL, i'd reduce it to 10 clubs and have 3 divisions of 10 with automatic promotion and relegation-subject to criteria as is in place now.

I actually agree that something has to happen. The crowds in Champ 1 are a major worry. All clubs are so self absorbed in themselves though.

This could be right, but having seen tommorrow go so fast i feel we could change our minds as one is here now, i might go slow but plenty think its best to be without a try.

The last one who did finished up late andcouldnt enjoy what was said before he went home , still we all lucky it was him and not us .

That is very Cantonesque Charlie.

No doubt it will be translated for the rest of us sometime soon.

it wasn't just me then

No John, i thought he'd gone

They are allon here tonight

,its like a Rugby version Bullseye,lookwhat you could have won , this gets better , im going for a LIE DOWN before the serious deep thinkers arrive .

RL isn't a profitable sport though Jonny. The Governing body makes a profit, as do a handful of clubs, but that's it!

Hence why RFL love the "Benefactor Model" as it gives the illusion of profitability. As the saying goes, how do you make a small fortune out of rugby league? Put a big fortune in!

If every club made a loss they would all fold. The RFL post year on year profits. Okay rich businessmen run RL clubs, but they do in all sports.

Just because that is the ' norm ' , it doesn't mean we should just accept it ? , all clubs cannot and will never bring in a rich benefactor , it is part of the sports governing bodies responsibility to do all it can to make all clubs self sustaining , fortunately we have salary caps that hopefully make it possible for all clubs to achieve break even , many other sports don't have that luxury

The RFL are also posting profits because of the £29m of tax payers money that has been granted by Sport England. Plus they need to do more in the heartlands.

Make no bones about it, there are big problems within the game.

I wonder who will start on minus points next season?

Can't let that go, Dave, it's way off. For a start, the development work is run at cost and is all answerable to Sport England. It has absolutely no part in the profitability of the RFL (though it obviously contributes to the turnover of the RFL). The RFL's profitability comes from increased revenue on tv deals, sponsorship, merchandising and ticket sales, and is after the return of most of it's income to the professional clubs.

As for the investment in traditional areas... And aside from the fact that all bar 7 of the current pro clubs are in 3 counties... The development cash is mostly spent in those same counties. There are more development staff funded in the NW and Yorkshire than in the whole of the rest of the uk put together.

There is an argument to say that is not development, it's consolidation. But, as per the first point, it's because Sport England want more people playing sport... For us that means touch RL and tag RL as much as 13 a side, because that's what Sport England are paying for. And it's a zero-sum game for the balance sheet.

(can't delete a duplicate post in the iPhone, sorry!)

Oh, and the RFL hates the rich benefactor model... It's just that the clubs are independent businesses, and even when the RFL sets up a salary-cap framework (that is the envy of other sports) it still can't force clubs to live within their commercial means. But if you think we have problems, look at soccer.

Not what they told Fax Joe , also why give clubs money with the specific aim to attract a benefactor , rather than set up marketing help to attract your average fan

I know you see things that go on that we don't , but the RFL s actions speak more than their words for me

The Crusader fiasco , the fact we still don't know the make up of next season or what clubs are still playing for this season is a complete farce

Sorry , they haven't a clue what the Championship clubs need , even the situation regarding the salary cap infringements only being sorted after 2/3 rds of the following season tells us we are nothing but an afterthought

I await to see what sort of mess they make of Crusaders part 3 , if it involves playing to different rules or payments not all out in the open it will be another knife in the hearts of clubs like Leigh,Fax,Fev

And I hope to god they don't attempt this Anglo French tournament we have heard rumours of

They are indefensible

A profit can be made in the Championship as the article below proves: www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 However we have had crowds of 3-4k each week with the odd crowd in the 2k. I'm not sure what rent we pay either as opposed to yourselves. I do know that 90% of all hospitality packages were sold as well this year. A big earner for the club. We also have good corporate partnerships in place but I think you guys have something similar?

A profit can be made in the Championship as the article below proves: www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 However we have had crowds of 3-4k each week with the odd crowd in the 2k. I'm not sure what rent we pay either as opposed to yourselves. I do know that 90% of all hospitality packages were sold as well this year. A big earner for the club. We also have good corporate partnerships in place but I think you guys have something similar?

Quote ="theredviking"A profit can be made in the Championship as the article below proves: www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 However we have had crowds of 3-4k each week with the odd crowd in the 2k. I'm not sure what rent we pay either as opposed to yourselves. I do know that 90% of all hospitality packages were sold as well this year. A big earner for the club. We also have good corporate partnerships in place but I think you guys have something similar?'" Lets just see if those figures are replicated again this season ? as your attendances have been similar , and your corporate support also

Quote ="theredviking"A profit can be made in the Championship as the article below proves: www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=2519 However we have had crowds of 3-4k each week with the odd crowd in the 2k. I'm not sure what rent we pay either as opposed to yourselves. I do know that 90% of all hospitality packages were sold as well this year. A big earner for the club. We also have good corporate partnerships in place but I think you guys have something similar?'" Lets just see if those figures are replicated again this season ? as your attendances have been similar , and your corporate support also

Public accounts for anyone to see if you're not convinced.

Well it is 12 months since those were announced , i'm sure if you've managed similar the Widnes club will be shouting it from the rooftops

purely speculative of course, but I would suggest those numbers are as accurate as a halifax attendance announcement!!!