I know I'm going to get torn to peices for this post, but it has to be said. I'm not even going to come back to defend myself, not because what I am saying is indefensible but because I'm sick of going over the same ground with the self congratulatory little clique on here, and know that no matter what is said, whatever suggestions are made, some people will never get over the great big chips on their shoulder. I'm getting more than a little sick of the knowing ss and finger pointing exhibited by a small handful of narrow minded posters on here.

Firstly Crusaders... Two different companies have been involved here, the second one inheriting the first ones debts due largely to the RFL insisting that the business had to be sold quickly to keep them in SL. I'm not suggesting that the RFL is blameless in that aspect, but to then wish a fellow RL club ill, and to fold, is completely beyond the pale. If this club should struggle financially [uthrough it's own mismanagement[/u then yes, let it fold. But to hope that it doesn't even get that far is just sick.
Change the situation... imagine that AT walks out on LCRLC and leaves us up creek and owing thousands to HMRC, with no way to pay it off. What would you prefer? That LCRLC folds, and a new club works it's way up from the depths of the conference (as has been suggested that Crusaders should do) or that a new owner is found quickly that enables us to continue to play at this level, debts paid or no? I know that the self righteous amongst you will insist that you'd rather we paid our way in the Conference than dodged their debts, but you know, and I know, that you don't mean it.

Secondly, promotion v licencing. Firstly, some of you may have noticed that I've pretty much stopped defending licencing on here. Not because my opinion has changed, because to be honest, it's not really worth arguing with people who don't actually know the difference between a licencing system and a franchising one, you're only showing your ignorance.
That said, lets get this one out of the way.. I'd prefer p&r any day. Unlike those who can only see 'the British way', I'm willing to accept that the game cannot survive with it. Look at what happened to Leigh last time we were promoted, it nearly broke the club. It wouldn't just be us, it would be pretty much every club that was 'lucky' enough to win promotion. The gulf between a semi professional club like ours and an established SL club is huge, and without the one season of grace given there would be no surer way of completely bankrupting any club that made the transition. If you want to see Northampton playing in SL then wait 20 years as they will be getting promoted as every other club will have been bankrupted by succesful promotion.

Next up, Sky TV. No, I don't like having them involved in the game, but the game couldn't survive without it, and for them to have a marketable product, then we need to accept that they have a loud voice in the game. If you want to trace this back far enough, then the root cause is with (of all people) Wigan RLC and their purchased domination of the game back in the 80s. Without that domination of the game by them, there wouldn't have been the need for other clubs to attempt to bankrupt themselves trying to play catch up. The answer should have been to introduce a salary cap back then at semi professional levels, but sadly the stable door was well and truly bust open by this time and it was too late to close it. At the end of the day, professional RL is here to stay, and the money has to come from somewhere.
Sky isn't a charitable organisation for the support and furthering of smaller sports, it is a commercial business, and sadly that is the bottom line. 'He who pays the piper calls the tune' to coin a phrase.

Attendances. Oh, I love this one... trying to attach the decline in RL crowds to licencing. Despite crowds falling in every other sport - even football away from the Premiership - it has to be the fault of licensing in RL. Nothing to do with people finding other ways of spending their money, no - these thousands of people have sat down and though "You know what? I don't agree with this licencing malarky andso I'm going to stop watching my RL club that I have supported through thick and thin". Read that again, and think about how absurd it sounds.
People these days have many other leisure options in front of them, and less money to spend on them. RL is only a game at the end of the day. It isn't the be all and end all of life. I don't attend Leigh as often as I used to due to changing crcumstances in my life. I get there when I can, but I can no longer justify a 250 mile round trip once a fortnight to watch some mediocre rugby. It's nothing to do with licencing, it's entirely to do with the product. Once upon a time I was there week in, week out. No longer. I, and I assume many others, are sick of the game that is shown to me week in, week out. Give me a team to watch that is worth the £50+ that it now costs me to attend and I will become a regular again, but until then I will pick my games.
The bottom line is that attendances have fallen because people have less free cash. You may possibly have noticed that we're in a recession at the moment, maybe it has escaped your attention. This leads to a tightening of belts and a saving of money.
It is nothing to do with an unpopular decision (that I still believe will be proven right) by the RFL to introduce licencing.

Thats all... had to get that off my chest. Thanks for reading it, feel free to tell me I'm wrong, that I don't know what I'm talking about, whatever... I'll not be returning to this thread as I know that the narrow, blinkered minds out there will not accept any other explaination for the games ills other than:


"Traditional RL = good, anything new = bad"


no matter how wrong they are.

i think your spot on with everything you said right there pal

Nik I don't have a problem with the every three years thing because I also think that teams should have time to bed into SL. Next Leigh may have stayed up in SL had they got the players they were after, that were offered contracts buy an expansion club that did not have the money to honour them. Which in my opinion is wrong. Especially when they were given special help from the RFL. I agree that to say I will not watch my team again because of liciencing is ridiculous and just an excuse. If you ask if Leigh would have been treated the same as the other expansion teams when in trouble I would definitely say NO. Expansion at all costs is the RFL and SKYs motto and it is completely wrong. You can't just expect people who have been supporting this game for tens of years to be told this with very little explination and lies and rule changes that suit only the chosen few. Transparency and truth is all that the every day supporter wants. That and a level playing field. Like I have just put on another thread after 2012 if the expansion teams cannot hold their heads above water then let them slip to where they can survive without any special help. They have had enough time and money spent on them. Leigh are not the only club in the championship with views like this so don't think that it is only Leythers.

I disagree with everything you said and wished you lived farther away then you would come to even less matches.

You mention a cash argument or lack of it for falling crowds, but that isn't why you no longer attend. You no longer attend because you state its mediocre rugby, we're not in SL you know. Make your mind up.

The rest is your opinion, some have different opinions. The RFL is more to blame in respect of due diligence. Leighton Samuels did not start up Celtic Crusaders on a whim. He was approached by the RFL and promised SL in three years. They had different rules and every concession under the sun. Visagate - The RFL know what Visas people require and turned a blind eye to the use of 6 players not entitled to be playing here with the visas they had.

Why not just put these clubs straight in instead of turning the Championships into a bunch of glorified friendlies. Toulouse for example being exempt from relegation could cause the make up of the League Table to be false. Once they can't get in the play offs they just took their foot off the gas a couple of years ago. If they wanted to put Toulouse in they would buy a whole new team whether they had been playing in the Championship or the French league.

What has happened at Cru was predicted by many throughout the game 2 years ago, not just Leythers, and if you listen to Wrexham FC fans they have very little faith in the two guys who will be involved in Expansion team no 3.

By the way I have nothing against new clubs by the way, the Scorpions are developing and doing things the right way. The Crusaders are artificial and stuffed full of Aussies (at least they were). Any new club takes time to develop, good luck to the Scorpions.

Will they expel a team to the Championships next season? You can bet it won't be Crusaders. I wonder what the clubs allegedly at risk feel towards Crusaders at the moment, but more to the point how will they take it come July when the decision is announced. It is just as likely that things will change and no one will come down due to the fact the RFL have now left themselves in an awkward position.

great post- the bitterness and in coherent rants about super league have decreased the amount i use this forum

Excellent, honest, frank post Scooter Nik.

I agree with much of it, but even where I disagree I salute you.

ability to attract both ' walk through the turnstile' fans , and financial ' investment ' from sponsorship and the business world , it does , no argument

Spot on , for many years I didn't attend a single match , it wasn't anything to do with the RFL , A director selling the clubs assets , not liking a particular coach/player/director , or that I felt that the beer/hotdogs/pies were too dear/tasted crap , it was because I had other things going on in my life that were more important at that time , but as you know we are now a ' blame ' culture , nothing happens without somebody being blamed for it

Yes you are correct , some of us are blaming the governing body for all the ills of our world , some of us just want the truth , thankfully this is a message board , which is just somewhere that sad people like myself and others come because we dont have a real life to live

I think the point in their is 'some of us just want the truth'. I suppose because they tell us nowt and more and more goes on behind closed doors, we have to make things up. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we are miles from the truth.

Only time I've ever been 'embaressed to be a leyther' was away at Workington Town in a challenge cup game.
I don't agree with all opinions on here and I don't agree with some of the things you post from time to time, the flip side being sometimes I do agree.

Its a message board though and people can and do offer varying opinions.

Franchising is the single most emotive controversial thing that has ever happened in British RL in my time of watching it.

When Mr Lewis replied to Gordon Burns on BBC TV 'Yes Thats Correct' to the question 'So are you saying Celtic Crusaders have a better stadium, support and youth set up than Leigh Centurions' I lost a lot of respect I had for our governing body, Possibly I became a club fan rather than a RL fan such was my disgust.

What has happened since hasn't made it easier to believe that things are better at the Governing body (which is a shame as there are many positives), however I follow Leigh and to be blunt Celtic , Saints, Wire etc , etc are of no concern to me unless we go up. Arguably the most important decision maker in our RL world isn't Lewis and the RFL but Mr Thomas our owner - if he leaves and our club dissapears then I for one won't be too interested in RL anymore.
Maybe the reason some dislike whats gone on at Celtic (and redhall) and seem so 'passionately' about it is because they view the RFL with its decison making (and 'explanations' of its decisions) as guilty of putting us more 'at risk' and looking below SL with the major struggles clubs have its hard to find a argument.

However the positives are.....
- We have a professional well run club
- We play in the best state of the art modern RL stadium
- Our crowds are increasing
- We have 2 of the most high profile , recognised RL personalities on the pay role commited to our club.
- We are in very good shape on & off the field.

Don't be embarressed to be a leyther NiK, be proud , I am.

Great post Jenky

Great post Jenky.

I found it far more enjoyable throughout last season to forget about the rights and wrongs of the off-field 'bigger picture' and just concentrating on the game on the pitch and enjoying the experience of following my club. And, I tell you what, I have thoroughly enjoyed it!

the only thing i don't understand is the title of this thread, i don't see how the things in it should affect how you feel about being a leyther.

I second that nozzy. Come on Nik be proud again. We have a lot to look forward to.

I think he means he is embarrassed to be associated with certain other Leythers who have simply aired their opinions on recent happenings in the sport. It isn't just Leythers though, have a wander around the multitude of RL messageboards.

I have given up on us ever being ALLOWED in Super League, though it may happen once the RFL have explored every other avenue nowhere near the M62. I generally don't watch Super League, I look at the results, but then again I do at Championship One teams, and local BARLA results. I despise the whole Super League set up, the way SKY appear to pull the strings, and also Eddie & Stevo are really irritating. I have lost interest in Rugby league, but I will always buy a Leigh Centurions season ticket, that is my choice, but when you analyze our position/future, there is nothing on the horizon that we can really feel good about, even though we do use a fantastic facility. I cease to be amazed what the RFL do for the likes of Harlequins & Crusaders, Catalans 'placed' in SL, and Toulouse exempt from relegation. But that is the norm/they are the rules and we are stuck with them. I get annoyed when i contstantly read about the "bright future for the Welsh game" from messrs Wood & Lewis - so bl00dy what, what does it REALLY matter, seriously why is it relevant. They give figures of how many kids play RL in the London area, why ???? Has it prevented Harlequins from struggling with their finances. I know they & Skolars do lots of work in those areas, but guess what it happens 'UP NORTH/IN FLAT CAP LAND' but don't expect RFL to EVER mention this.
I have learned to ignore this ongoing situation with our game, but when the odd Super League troll pays us a visit, or this weeks going on with crusaders, it really does PI55 me off, it shouldn't, we are not the only club affected by the bizarre goings on at Red Hall. Right......... now for that cup of tea, with my flat cap on !

Whats the rant got to do with leigh?????

Franchise is utter nonsense,show me now how our game is better with franchise,show me a success story????

Show me how the lower leagues are stronger due to franchise????

Best thing what could happen is when tricky dicky wheels out his school projector again for the big franchise launch is widnes in the bottom three of our league and wakey and cas going great guns in the top 4,and awaiting tricky dicky explaining why widnes will replce them...classic...meanwhile the welsh wonders are bottom followed by the french[who since franchise as started have gone downhill internationally with the usual suspects in there usual spots.


But I'm sure stevo and eddie will tell me how great our comp is




Embarressed to be a lyther nope proud as punch as at least our board won't just stand there and clap at the emperors new cloths

Well I think people are entitled to their point of view. I do not mind admitting I am wrong about things I have posted and sometimes I admit it.

Jenky's post I agree with. Nik makes some valid points but as he will not be reading this I would like to know the difference between franchising and licencing' cartels and monopolies between closed shops too and why some are illegal in commerce but not in RL. No doubt someone else could explain that to me.

Do I know our country is experiencing hard economic times ? Do I know why ? Do I have a chip on my shoulder ? Am I embarrassed to be a Leyther ? Well I know the answers to those and Nik might be astonished to learn if we met face to face I am a reasonable type who can see both points of view and sometimes I turn out to be right and sometimes not.

On this I am not going to change my mind and that is franchising stinks is unacceptable and will not benefit any professional sport in this country' and 'that is not just the reason I would not dream of going to MacDonalds for a meal.I read your posts I do not insult you I do not ridicule you I read what you post and if I feel like replying I do and you should do the same.

I could watch Wigan Wire Saints et al. Why do I watch Leigh ? I was born there I was 7 years old when I started watching and it is one of my passions. Can I enjoy watching other clubs play ? Yes I can but I get a bigger buzz watching the team I care about. I want them to achieve through results not some silly system which condemns them never to be able to get to the top. NEVER NEVER NEVER.

Well said Nik! Most of which I agree with.

I'm with you Matt, I forgot about Super League and it's plastic ways and loved my RL all year. (even though i've not seen us win since May) It was great seeing competitive RL every week in a great stadium and a cracking atmosphere in the North Stand, having a chat and a beer with opposition fans and staying to the end, even when we lost, to clap our players and the opposition players off. It really felt like a place I wanted to be on my Sundays, hence my first season ticket in years.

I'll never be ashamed to be a leyther, just because our sport is corrupt. But where else would I go? All other sports are way more bent than ours.

Fake Blood-Yawnion
Betting scandals- Football, Cricket, boxing, F1
Chance of getting head caved in- Football, Yawnion
Cheating- Boxing, Yawnion, Cricket, Football, Boxing, Athletics, F1

You sir are a sensible human being.
Im not even going to bother reading the rest of the thread but just to tell you I cannot believe a person from Leigh sees a spade as a spade and doesnt call it a chimp.
Where are the rest of you???

Dico you are at it again but your last post is predictable. You only want to read posts you agree with however now that is a first for you. When you were studying at school if there was a subject you did not like did you tell your School's Headmaster that you would not be attending lessons on that particular subject ?

if a chav like you says it is right then it must be wrong.

this club is not being miss managed so why have you underlined that bit ?.

YES!!
I got told I couldnt enter my GCSEs because I hadn't done any coursework or attended lessons so on one of my detentions towards the end of year 11 I scribbled on notepaper 3 line introductions and handed them in as pieces. I kid you not.
I still ended up in lawschool in Birmingham.

And J.C, I could not be a chav.. why? Because I have a vast musical education. You see, what most of you pop music working class scum dont realise is if you are educated properly in music from a young age it simply is not possible to sit there and listen to that sort of music, or spend your saturday nights watching X-factor.
Go to any, and I mean any elite music school or college and find a single person that is into pop music or is a chav and you should put the lottery on at the weekend.
Being a chav is how you're brought up and the influences you receive from a behavioural point of view and quite frankly its very offending as I wouldnt waste spitting on the gimps