We played Doncaster. The Whipping boys of that season. The reason it sticks in my mind is I bombed it to HP from the Manchester Derby, after giving the dark side another nose bleed. I was buzzing until I got into the ground (or morgue) where hardly anyone was even watching the game never mind the size of the crowd. It was depressing and boring. Mainly due to the result being a formality, even tho we was bad that season. There was no fire in the belly for this game, and fans where deflated that season - funnily enough it was chasing promotion, the incentive that is keeping 3000 fans away (they must have been stuck in traffic). When in reality its the 101 excuses, and the fact someone like Arthur puts money in to fill the money void, and we have fans on the wings waiting for the big game to turn up.

Paul' you are always sensible with your posts and whilst I do not think Leigh could be competative in the top league at the moment it is not just about Leigh is it ?

For a competative sport which is'in the main regional' clubs have to have the opportunity to be in the top league.

Fev for eg have been undisputably the most competative Championship club for 3 seasons but where are they going ? Nowhere.

Why ? So we stick with licenscing and what happens ? You know and everyone knows the folk who watch get fed up. OK not all but enough for a club being ambitious to give up on that ambition because their fan base diminishes.

Without ambition or a reason to be ambitious clubs will not grow.

Licenscing could never work and needs to be scrapped.

Even in 2009 when we looked like going into the lowest tier our gates increased as we tried to avoid relegation.

You have to give every club a chance and under the current system the game is about 5 teams and every other clubs fans do not have anything to care about.

At least in footie lesser clubs fans still turn up to see the best teams in the hope they will still be playing against them the following season and that might explain why gates for those clubs in both promotion and relegation battles go up.

There are other reasons why fans can't be bothered anymore.
Firstly, the top 5 or 6 clubs take all the young talent at an early age. Then, they come back later for the ones they missed. This stops any smaller club building a decent team. It happens in footy but healthy transfer fees are involved which enables the smaller clubs to survive.
How must Salford fans feel when they get a new ground, appear to be getting a decent side together and then Pies and Wire come along and take there star players. They must get disillusioned.
Something is wrong when Wire, for example, have so many players that they have a top team plus nearly as many again on loan at SL and championship clubs and still have enough for the 21's, 18's (or whatever the run). Surely it would make many clubs stronger if the talent was distributed better. Don't tell me that these players would not develop if not with SL clubs - (Chris Hill is the perfect example) and we are not exactly producing players to compete with the Aussies are we. Something is wrong when SL clubs have to have players on loan midway through a season - surely their squad should be big enough.
Secondly, referees (incl. video refs) are so inconsistant that folk get fed of watching games were the momentum of the game and possibly the outcome is often decided by the ref as he choses when and what he wants to see (things he's let go many times in the same game).
How forward was the Wire pass last weekend against the Pies? If the officials can't see when a ball is passed 2 yards in front of a line and is caught 2 yards + behind it we have no chance. Our games is a joke.

Great post.

Licensing isn't ideal, but at the moment there isn't enough money in the game to create 2 full time leagues. Diluting current money from SL clubs to other clubs will not help the game for obvious reasons - this would just accelerate the financial crisis of current SL clubs. Anyone with half a brain knows a 2 tiered comp would be beneficial, including the RFL and especially to Sky. The principle needs to be sold to Sky, and maybe it been tried or maybe the opportunity was missed when Sky televised the Championship and didn't see the potential we see.
As for fans getting fed up - of course they do. The reasons are many, with some using franchising as 1 of the excuses. For Leigh we haven't contested a GF since 2004. No doubt there will be possibly double our average going to GF if we get there this season. why do they not support the club now to get us there? Why would you want to see the ending of the season and not see how we got there? But this is what happens with or without P&R. The weekly rounds would see little change for the better, if any. I know because I have seen and experienced it. Its frustrating, and must have been even more so for the leigh board in 2004 with our most successful season in modern era and crowds where rubbish - but that was down to a few of the 101 excuses including a new one of Abram not waving and smiling enough.
Promotion is there at the moment, despite some predicting the drawbridge is being pulled up clubs have entered SL since the system was brought in. We can get in SL if we get off field sorted and prove we can run a full time club with a competitive team and add something to the SL competition.
P&R does not substantially increase attendances for the bread and butter games - they would probably increase for a do or die game, but how many times does that happen over the years never mind during a season? Fev I can sympathize with to a point, but they have a major hurdle of a small ground that serves its purpose at the moment but couldn't cope in SL, especially with so many derbies - in my opinion that is correct. Blackpool would not have been allowed in PL without major ground improvements.
Football there is no comparison because they have a lot of money and the advantage of a truly worldwide fan base. Its the biggest sport on the planet. Leigh RMI on a foggy cold night had 7000+ on against Fulham going back a few years, even though they hardly ever got over 1000 on normally and their fan base was very small.

I'll grant you that's a poor crowd but in the years between '99 and '06 when we were genuinely chasing promotion, I can give you several 4,000+ crowds vs Widnes, Oldham, Huddersfield & Salford (with more than a couple above 6,000). Our games at Widnes during this time were regularly getting over 6,000+ (and I remember one game with a crowd over 8,000). Widnes' crowds vs Castleford & Salford pre-licensing were in excess of 8,000.

In 2001, we played Workington on a Wednesday night and Rochdale at home on the Sunday, who were both mid-table at best, and got 3,000+ in both games.

I think if we played the same two teams at home over the next week, I think we'd struggle to hit 3,000 cumulatively. The days of a Championship league match attracting over 8,000 speccies are long gone, even over 6,000 is a pipe dream.

Highest crowd in the Championship this season is 2,806 between the top two teams in the league. We we're hitting that regularly back in 2001.

P&R might not be the answer to all our problems but it would certainly do us more good than licensing is. The crowd you mentioned before was probably a one off. It could become a regular occurance if things continue down this road.

I wasn't highlighting the Doncaster game to show as typical example. I was highlighting this game because it had nothing to do with franchising, but just like many other games have been poorly supported. Had this game been after 2008 it would have been used as conclusive proof that franchising was damaging our game. You have no proof P&R would enable the game to flourish. 2001 is 11 years ago, and 1992 is 20 years ago. The examples to use are 2004 and 2006 when P&R was in place, and they are poor examples so won't be used because they don't fit in with your argument.
Jenky, and yourself to a lesser extent are using bygone times as examples, when the reality was the trend was downwards 2004 onwards well before 2009. The landscape in 1992 for example was totally different to now where football with the help of TV and the glamour of the game has crushed RL's potential somewhat. Convincing the new generation to visit old RL grounds, or even new ones week in week out isn't easy especially when most of the ground is empty and that includes some SL grounds.
Thats why I say that bringing P&R back is not the answer. There are much bigger obsticles to overcome and real imagination needed to push the game forward - money makes the world go round and sadly in this financial climate we don't have anywhere near enough.
I can agree with a lot of people on here about the RFL messing up, but in principle licensing is a very good idea if done properly.

I don't have the figures to hand, but I'd wager that in '04 & '06 we were getting crowds above 2,000. We're not even managing that at the moment. Our crowds vs. Widnes post-licensing were way down on what they were.

The figures provided may be old but they show what can be achieved with P&R in place. At the moment the best two teams in the comp are holding a steady 2,000+ average (which is fantastic (and probably in-line with our averages during '99-'06)) but where is the bumper crowd coming from? Where is the big draw that will see 6,000 people pack into POR, LSV or The Shay to see two teams battling it out for a place in the GF? Afterall, isn't the whole point of this to get the punters in?

I predict this years GF Eliminator will be lucky to see 3,000 fans, which is a massive shame because this is a great competition. Unfortunately, since licensing the fans (especially the floating ones) have voted with their feet.

I don't disagree that the theory behind licensing was a good one. If done properly it could work. However, since the inception of licensing, nothing has been done properly. There's very little transparency in the process whatsoever, everthing has been cloak & dagger, smoke & mirrors. To make matters worse, we have 3 elite clubs with their SKY money having financial difficulties, London are dying on their & we have one of the worst sponsorship deals in living memory, and we're expected to believe everything is all rosy in RL? I have very little faith in the RFL and with the SL cartel looking after one another, I don't see things getting better in the near future.

You simply don't know what gates would have been to compare to now, had the new system not come into place. But anyone can see the game has taken a big hit due to the global recession. Its not just effected gates, but also outside money coming in. And owners bank rolling clubs are now struggling to stay involved and as we found out have had to bow out suddenly.
We don't know what gate we will get for a final eliminator because we haven't been in one since 2004. As for crowds in 2004, they was bad. That was a great team we had, and we sweeped all before us, with lots of drama as a added ingredient.
I look at it this way. Under P&R Leigh will never win SL. Under licensing we can win SL. I never want to see Leigh in SL to make up the numbers, or gives us chance to Play against W1gan as an ambition. I want us to compete in SL, and build season on season to win SL within our own budget dictated by the towns enthusiasm to back the club through thick and thin.

To be honest I look around me now in the North Stand and out of the 17 of us who used to stand together , theres only 4 of us now. Some dont come because their kids have grown up and lost interest, some because they have lost interest, some wont go night matches most have said its just not the same any more , we all used to meet up prematch for a drink and all go to the game together.
I remember us all going to the first game together v Salford and the stand was packed, slowly the RFL and us trying silly Friday night games are killing off our core support.

This time of the season too a few years ago we would have now been planning our Grand final day out, how many of us were going who was picking up the match tickets, who was picking up the coach tickets, we d all book on the same coach, we was all buzzing, now if we make it to the GF what does it actually mean anymore?

To be honest I look around me now in the North Stand and out of the 17 of us who used to stand together , theres only 4 of us now. Some dont come because their kids have grown up and lost interest, some because they have lost interest, some wont go night matches most have said its just not the same any more , we all used to meet up prematch for a drink and all go to the game together.
I remember us all going to the first game together v Salford and the stand was packed, slowly the RFL and us trying silly Friday night games are killing off our core support.

This time of the season too a few years ago we would have now been planning our Grand final day out, how many of us were going who was picking up the match tickets, who was picking up the coach tickets, we d all book on the same coach, we was all buzzing, now if we make it to the GF what does it actually mean anymore?

I know its sad to say but all the GF means now is a wad of cash if you can call it a wad and in some cases bragging rights but other than that nothing.I mean we lost the NRC a few week ago and it did'nt bother me as much as i thought it would ok we lost but other than losing a payday what did we actually lose a tin cup? Im a big believer of whoever wins the league is the best team in that league and ive always believed that but if you win the league it means nothing at the end of the day i like watching my team always have and if we win things its a bonus but IMO it should be mean more than a bonus but with the clowns at red hall thats all it is.I had far more excitement when we were in champ 1 trying to get promoted to the championship than im having now and we are winning things.The loss of P&R as killed our game and a lot of fans interest i will continue to watch my team as long as i can because its not my teams fault these things are in place and my team needs us supporters to continue watching them to win things or even more importantly survive.

Am I missing something? I remember us being bad enough to be relegated, but can’t remember which season recently we were actually good enough to be promoted.

It’s easy to blame low attendances on no P&R, franchising, RFL etc (none of which am I a fan of) but what have any of the clubs outside of SL actually done to attract people?

Both Starbug and myself have said before the teams compete on the pitch, off the pitch the clubs should be pro-actively working together for the greater good.

Why do we need to be good enough to promoted when we can't be

Derek are there no forcast sheets for this coming week?

Maybe he/she isn't a Leigh fan, glow?

Bringing back Promotion & Relegation, hardly gonna make club's average attendances lower than what they are now right now, are they Leiiggh Leeiiggh ?
Impressive long posts by the way.....maybe it's not the answer, and my name is Boris and I live on the planet 'tharg', oh and have you got change for a 'plip plop' ????

Linda if your post does not set some sort of alarm bells ringing at rl hq I don't know what will.


As for leigh leigh his ideas are sadly what the clowns at rl hq follow and that unfortunaley is the path our game seems hell bent on

As noted elsewhere, we had crowds that were smaller ones than the ones we had now when we did have P&R, Licencing is just a convenient peg to hang the blame on, but it goes a lot further than that.
The regularly posted comment that 'without P&R it's just a long series of friendlies' is without much substance either - what does the SL champion win, other than the SL title? Do they get a chance to go and play in Australia or something? Of course not.

The fact of the matter is that we're a semi-professional sport trying to draw professional sport level crowds. Take a step back, stop trying to compare us to SL sides, stop trying to compare us to top level football attendances, and take a look at other sports in a similar position. We draw similar (if not better) crowds to RU clubs at our level, lower division soccer's semi-pro teams don't do much better, and professional cricket often sees attendances lower than ours.
All these comparisons are pointless though - if we want to increase our attendance, then we need to change the attitudes of the fans we have.

No one likes to be criticised, but the general air on this forum is 'It's everyones fault but our own'.
No it bloody well isn't, it is ENTIRELY our own fault. We've always overspent, leaving ourselves in the poo, we've always overestimated our income - why haven't we learned to live within 1/2 of what we're claiming and bank any extra? - and we've always cried that the RFL hate us.
Here's the bad news. The RFL couldn't give a flying one about us, one way or the other. The lower divisions are there to bridge the gap between the amateur game and SL, a way of bringing players through and up to SL standard.
This is how it should be - does anyone on here actually believe that if we get a great player we should hang on to him and deny him his chance at SL? Of course no one does, but to hear the flat cap mumblings about being a 'feeder club' you would think so. So what if we are a feeder club of some sort? I don't see any formal arrangement, do you?
What if we use our great RL player base as a breeding ground for prospective SL players - what will those players have to do to get noticed in the first place? Play to lose or play to win? I know which I think it is, and in the process they'll help us achieve better league position than we would if an SL scout had snapped them up and taken them away from us before we'd even given them a run out.
Similarly with DC players. If they're not quite up to SL standard, great - we'll take them and keep them fit. The big mistake is relying on these players, no one should do that as the consequneces of relying on them is too obvious.
Sadly, we've not learned that last lesson yet.

The bottom line is that clubs have to look out for themselves. No relying on SL to bail them out, no bitching if it seems the RL has done so to other clubs - if our club overspends then I'd not expect anyone other than Leigh fans and our few friends to give a damn about it. Similarly, I'll not throw money into someone elses pot if they've over reached themselves.

It truly isn't rocket science.

We can be, we just weren't good enough on and off the field.

Problem is - crowds in SL are up - so are Sky viewing figures. This gives the RFL the basis for doing what they do, despite the warning signs at Bradford.

Are they really? Well i never

What as that got to do with us? Ok most of us don’t like the ‘rules’ and hopefully they’ll change them but the clubs outside of SL need to stop blaming everyone else, feeling sorry for themselves and actually get out there and do something positive.

I’ve got shot down before for saying I would rather we had a good marketing person (with a budget) than a good half back (with boots) but I still feel it would be the best way forward.

Surely you must know that press releases are supposed to highlight positives? Surely you must know that the RFL know the game is struggling behind closed doors?
IF clubs the size of Rangers can go under, who are comparable on their own in revenues to the whole of UK pro RL then you know things are tough for the game.

Problem is glow that no matter how good the marketing is without a good half back or whatever people will not come and watch a losing team. How do you change human nature. How do you change peoples ideals that the US/Australian methods are better than the deep seated British way of rewarding on field achievements. All licensing has done is protect the weak.