You're missing the point - its the transport links that matter more, not just the proximity. Thats why RL is the grassroots sport in Leigh in a way that perhaps it isn't in Warry.

In fact, Warrington under-achieves at pretty much everything in terms of the size of its population. Footall - Gary Bannister. Cricket - Neil Fairbrother. Pop Culture - Chris Evans. Acting - Pete Postlethwaite. Pretty poor return for a town of that size.

Warrington Wolves' junior setup is very strong, though. Great teams at 18s and 20s, strong service area setup, solid support for the clubs network. I meet a disproportionately large number of Warry people in the development game around the country, too.

Well if Dico misses that one or maybe better doesn't' his reply should be interesting.

They are strong but not all from Warrington they are signing up talent and moving them to the club. It is proximity not transport. If it was transport links that matter the most we would all support Warrington as it has 2 motorways passing through and numerous A roads. Warrington has ,many Utd, City, and both scouse teams fans in their town, bet not many support Spurs or Arsenal as they are forther away.

i might need to change my opinion of piemen if pieman keeps coming on here defending us.

I dont really need to reply.
71's assessment and conculsion was pretty much bob on the money.

Only thing I'd say to pieman is he obviously needs to learn to count as last time I checked there's 3 motorways in Warrington. He also needs to relearn his local geography by saying Leigh isnt small. I could walk from one side of the town to the other in 20 minutes. You'd be hard pushed to drive from warringtons north to south border in 30, excluding the motorway with a clear run

Best put yourself forward for 2012 then if you reckon you can walk from one end of Higher Fold to the Tamar in an hour, never mind 20 minutes.

What is it? 2 1/2 miles? ish? 20 mins was probably a slight understatement but if you cant cover a couple of miles in little over half an hour then I suggest you get yourself down to that nice flash new gym you've built next to your ground

...and when you have problems with any two of the three motorways, the whole of Warrington becomes a car park!!!!!!!

I got a nice sleep on the way into work this morning!
I love traffic jams

Like said before good luck going from Higher fold to westleigh in that time. So you have 3 motorways a large town and still cant fill your small ground even with success...

used to watch Leigh when it was played in Winter and SL in Summer with my brother in law as hes a Leyther.

Our grounds standing areas arent big enough.
The South stand sells out regularly; people just wont pay £26 or whatever ridiculous it is to sit down.

24 for 1 side and 19 in the other seating area £2 more than standing up? Hardly a bank breaker £19.

:14d2am12

But that's what clubs do. That's a youth system... not simply producing hundreds of kids born within 3 miles of the ground, but identifying young talent and bringing it into the club. Denis Betts, lad from Salford, played all his junior rugby at Leigh Rangers (as-was), signed for Wigan at 17. How do you think a cockernee like Becks is a product of the Man United Youth system?

so basically you are saying Warrington deserve a place in SL and are more important than leigh due to them having better transport links. The M6 and 62 aswell as the East Lancs are either in Leigh or less than a mile away. Culture doesnt follow transport links. Cutlure is taught and led. This can be done by many factors.Leigh in the past were just as succesful as Wire. If someone came to leigh tomorrow and gave them 20 million to build a world class squad. Would they not be worth a place in SL as they have worse transport links than every other club in the league? Like I said earlier Leigh have a lot of things away from the pitch going for them and always have. They just need a lot of money throwing at them. Wire were in a similar spot before Tesco built them their ground and Moran took over.

I would accuse you of wilfully misreading and misrepresenting what I've said, but I actually think you genuinely don't understand it.

If you can make a statement as incorrect as this, then no argument based on this is worth the effort of rebuffing. But perhaps you have an alternative theory to why there are descendants of Africans in the Caribbean (and the US, and in Bristol) or why they speak Spanish in Santiago, or why they play cricket in India and Australia but not in Indonesia and Argentina.

Transportation links facilitate the migration of peoples and (as culture is a human construct) therefore also propogates the dissemination and interaction of culture(s). Accents migrate along transport hubs. So do cultural pursuits. But if you're not happy to accept this, there's a Professor of Geography at Manchester Uni posts on this forum, I can always ask him to come and adjudicate.

None of which is to say that a place in SL is deserved on the basis of the number of transport routes in and out of town. The discussion was as to why Leigh town produces so many players from such a small population base compared to Warrington (because they have fewer cultural pulls from other directions) but why they can't hang on to those players (because Warrington has five times the population and an easier infrastructure to connect to), and therefore which club was more 'important' in global terms. And that came from the original topic, about what Sky (as a purely commercial enterprise) value in terms of the spread of SL clubs.

From a (purely) commercial perspective, the most important clubs in SL are (in approximate order):
Harlequins, Crusaders, Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Les Cats, Hull & Hull KR, Bradford, Warrington, Salford. Then the rest, who are all much-of-a-muchness, which would include (as interchangeable) Widnes, Leigh, Sheffield and Halifax, along with the Wakeys, Huddersfields and Cas's of this world. Birmingham / Glasgow / Dublin / Bristol would all jump into the top tier if/when they come into existance.

Get you now you mean migration not culture as culture can be behavioural which was my take on it. I dont think its still as valid though as Warrington dont have any other sport from the town. If people move in then they must move out also. So Warrington should have a large base and a larger pool also to develop but they dont seem to be doing. We at Wigan have a lot smaller population compared to Warrington have a premiership football team have numerous other football and rugby teams on our doorstep yet develop more youngsters and have one of the largest fanbases in the game.

Getting there... migration but also commuting and commerce, hence someone from Warrington is more likely to work in Liverpool or Manchester, or at least live next door to someone who does. As you say, culture is learned and led, but it's also changed by interaction between cultures, and those interactions (from permanent migration to daily communting) follow arterial transport routes. The axis of influence across the north of England goes Liverpool - Manchester - Bradford - Leeds - Hull.

I was speaking to the Leeds Met and GB Students Coach, Paul Fletcher, a couple of months ago, he says it's a doddle for him because all the kids in the north want to study in amongst the big city nightlife of Leeds or Manchester, so they get a huge pool of RL players even without trying... then their reputation for excellence brings in any waverers.

Warrington has a large base but it's pulled every which way. It's a hub but not a destination. On the plus side, it can attract talent but on the minus side, it doesn't have the same insular focus on its own traditions.

Wigan is smaller but more self-contained. It has a much more concentrated sporting tradition in RL, even with a Premier league soccer team and a couple of mainline stations and nearby motoway links, because the East-West axis is more important, and because the conjuction of E/W with N/S in Warrington is most important. It also has a finer tradition, particularly of 'recent' success through the 1980's and early 90's, when this generation of parents were children and teenagers.

The RL culture in Wigan is stronger than Warrington, and its big enough that its numbers are greater. The tradition in Leigh is arguably stronger than both, in percentage terms, but there's just not enough people in Leigh, and as the top of the pyramid is represented by clubs out of town, we lose the pinnacle of our talent. We are the worst placed club in Lancashire in that respect... South is Warrington, North is Wigan, West is St Helens, East is Salford. Only Batley and Dewsbury are similarly ringfenced by top teams.

To Sky, Crusaders are so important because they bring in thousands of casual Welsh viewers, who already subscribe to Sky for the Union, but who add to the value of the advertising spaces during the RL games. They also bring in lots of media coverage in the welsh press for a product (SL) that Sky have exclusive rights to.

Quins are vital because they are a presence in the capital, which has a population of 7million and a 9-to-5 population of 20 million, or 1/3 of the whole island population. I heard somewhere recently that Sky's RL coverage has more viewers in London than in the north. Wouldn't surprise me... there are just so many more people there. London is the 3rd biggest Australian city by population. Leeds, Bradfut, the Hulls and Salford are big city clubs. Wigan, Saints and Warry are successful RL die-hard towns. The rest are pretty much interchangeable.

this is getting heavy................

not really.

I think it's possibly the most interesting thing I've read on here, im awaiting Piemans riposte

..... and is a very good read.

Indeed, very interesting. I think Leigh is slowly becoming a 'commuter' town which might lead to a similar effect that Warrington might be suffering from. One thing that needs to happen to ensure that our RL dynasty continues is that ALL of the schools in the Leigh area continue to teach RL, so even kids from families who are new to the area can then become familiar with the game and then go on to become players/spectators in the town.

But Warrington being a commuter hub doesnt explain why they cannot get large crowds and create its own youth as they have 2 large amatuer clubs 3 if you class Callands. Leigh doesnt have a transport link as good as Warringtons but then again it is a quater of the size and considering it has good transport links itself puts itself in a similar position to Warrington if you can compare the adverse affect of the commuters may have on the area in relation to the size of the 2 towns.



I still think Leigh has as much to offer as an awful lot of SL teams due to the tradition, local game, continuous supply of quality youngsters, fanbase and stadia (which is the point I was making at the start

)

Bless !!!!

sorry for posting the 'heavy bit'.