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Here is an interesting article from Love Rugby League;
https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ed ... r-success/
They say that you have to go back to 2006 to find a SL winner that fielded less than 7 home grown players in their side. But Leeds Wigan and Saints are fairly wealthy clubs with a decent pool of youngsters playing in their locality and a tradition of winning. So I don't think there is a direct argument for saying you need at least 7 players to have a chance of winning the trophy, but it must surely be a major factor. And you can list possible reasons for recruiting 'from within';
Youngsters grow up playing the clubs style of rugby and can easily slot into the team.
Club loyalty is higher, particularly if they are 'home town' players.
Effort and determination to win is likely to be higher.
They are willing to sit in the squad filling in for injured 1st team players whilst gaining experience.
Cost to the club is less than an expensive overseas import and they get a dispensation from the salary cap.
More local players making the first team probably encourages more local school age players to play the game.
Unfortunately whilst we as a club have spent plenty of time and money on an academy, we have simply not produced sufficient SL standard players that we need. The most promising young players we have produced all seem to end up in lower leagues, with less than a handful in other SL clubs (3 ?). If we are to succeed then this needs to be turned around, and certainly in the years when we do produce a group of genuinely promising kids, we need to be playing them in the team or at another club rather than letting them fester on the sideline.
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Here is an interesting article from Love Rugby League;
https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/ed ... r-success/
They say that you have to go back to 2006 to find a SL winner that fielded less than 7 home grown players in their side. But Leeds Wigan and Saints are fairly wealthy clubs with a decent pool of youngsters playing in their locality and a tradition of winning. So I don't think there is a direct argument for saying you need at least 7 players to have a chance of winning the trophy, but it must surely be a major factor. And you can list possible reasons for recruiting 'from within';
Youngsters grow up playing the clubs style of rugby and can easily slot into the team.
Club loyalty is higher, particularly if they are 'home town' players.
Effort and determination to win is likely to be higher.
They are willing to sit in the squad filling in for injured 1st team players whilst gaining experience.
Cost to the club is less than an expensive overseas import and they get a dispensation from the salary cap.
More local players making the first team probably encourages more local school age players to play the game.
Unfortunately whilst we as a club have spent plenty of time and money on an academy, we have simply not produced sufficient SL standard players that we need. The most promising young players we have produced all seem to end up in lower leagues, with less than a handful in other SL clubs (3 ?). If we are to succeed then this needs to be turned around, and certainly in the years when we do produce a group of genuinely promising kids, we need to be playing them in the team or at another club rather than letting them fester on the sideline.
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| Totally with "Offload". But how do we make Warrington a hot bed of rugby? How many kids play rugby in schools & amateur clubs? There is no doubt we have tried to develop our academy. But you have to look at how many players currently play in SuperLeague who are born in the Wire area and compare it with Wigan.
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| I know there was a long thread about them previously, but there was an outstanding junior team at rylands that were virtually all signed up by saints. There is some excellent rugby talent in the town and we shouldn't be missing out on them to other clubs.
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| If I was the parent of a teenager playing amateur rugby in the town, I'd think twice before allowing my child to sign for Warrington then sit at the back of the queue behind a bunch who trade on having played in the NRL in the distant past.
Also, plenty of families in the town have no association with Wires - they come from out of the town and have allegiances elsewhere so we have to sell the club to them.
We have to cast the net far and wide - in days of yore we signed the likes of Chris Rudd, Gary Chambers, Jon Roper, Sculthorpe, Harris and many others from amateur rugby outside of the town and even the county.
But we have to win them over. Sign for us and we'll nurture you, help you progress and improve and win trophies. At the moment I don't see that.
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| Quote ="morrisseyisawire"If I was the parent of a teenager playing amateur rugby in the town, I'd think twice before allowing my child to sign for Warrington then sit at the back of the queue behind a bunch who trade on having played in the NRL in the distant past.
'"
In that case why have so many average players from our Academy, played 50 to 100 games in the first team with us?
Whereas the likes of Matty Russell, Samy Kibula, get cut by Wigan without even getting a chance?
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"In that case why have so many average players from our Academy, played 50 to 100 games in the first team with us?
Whereas the likes of Matty Russell, Samy Kibula, get cut by Wigan without even getting a chance?'"
Wigan had other youngsters that were better players than those you mentioned.
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| Exactly, but if you were a parent of a teenager playing amateur rugby in the town, what guarantee would you get if you let your kid sign for Wigan, that they wouldn't just be down the pecking order of Wigan youngsters awaiting a chance in the first team. In Warrington, the competition is likely to be easier and so is the route to getting a chance in the first team.
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| If we are not turning out SL standard youngsters then either the coaching is the problem or the quality of youngster entering the academy is too low (or a combination of both).
I would say we are probably not attracting enough quality into our Academy. If you look at the senior players in the 2020 U19's then Dean Bedall, Aaron Pimblett and Ellis Longstaff were all recruited from Wigan's Scholarship group. Jacob Gannon came from Leeds, David Gibbons Huddersfield and Myles Tate from Castleford academies. That is not far from half the senior players. NB ironically I think Bedall is from the town and played for Crosfields.
If the system was working smoothly you would perhaps expect to see nearly all the U19's coming through from the U16's together perhaps with 1 or two starlets that we pinch from the likes of eg Castleford (Luis Johnson) or Huddersfield. If we get anyone from Saints or Wigan it tends to be because they have too much quality (in that position) to retain a given player.
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| Just look at the Super League Dream Team and how many players from each club's Academy is to see how far behind our Academy is.
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| I don't think we're miles behind academy wise. Wigan, saints and Leeds cast their net wide as well, not all these academy products are local to them. Our problem is them getting a chance and, as Sally alluded to earlier, us fans have to get on board with that by showing patience when they are blooded.
As a side issue (but IMO an important one) we missed a trick not giving Mike Cooper the captaincy upon his return. Local lad, leader, done it in the NRL and commands respect, always gives 100%, probably our best player and also a very articulate, intelligent bloke. Co-captaincy nonsense doesn't work, Hill i believe is a divisive figure and Hughes besides being walking mediocrity is a quiet fella.
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| Quote ="Moe syslak"I know there was a long thread about them previously, but there was an outstanding junior team at rylands that were virtually all signed up by saints. There is some excellent rugby talent in the town and we shouldn't be missing out on them to other clubs.'"
Yeah i remember this, i thought it was odd that's saints saw so much in them but we didn't. Makes you question our scouts etc, Saints aren't the type of Club to simply sign anyone and hope they come good.
Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.
Somebody said the pressure on our coaches to win must be massive, and i believe this is a factor in not bringing the kids through.
But i also think not having an academy competition, with our young team playing each week is also a huge factor. It makes super league look so amateurish it's unreal and i find it bizzarre it was scrapped and many teams are against it i genuinely don't understand it.
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| Quote ="Or thane"Yeah i remember this, i thought it was odd that's saints saw so much in them but we didn't. Makes you question our scouts etc, Saints aren't the type of Club to simply sign anyone and hope they come good.
Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.
Somebody said the pressure on our coaches to win must be massive, and i believe this is a factor in not bringing the kids through.
But i also think not having an academy competition, with our young team playing each week is also a huge factor. It makes super league look so amateurish it's unreal and i find it bizzarre it was scrapped and many teams are against it i genuinely don't understand it.'"
With junior recruitment it's a case of if we sign enough of them, than there's more chance of some making SL. There's way more that don't make it from junior RL/academy than do as it's a numbers game. The trick is getting a better percentage that make it through into the SL ranks.
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| Quote ="ratticusfinch"I don't think we're miles behind academy wise. Wigan, saints and Leeds cast their net wide as well, not all these academy products are local to them. Our problem is them getting a chance '"
We are not miles behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds, if the metric is percentage of players that come through in to the first team, or that get a good number of games.
If the metric is, percentage of real top class players - good enough to be difference makers in Grand Finals, like Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, O'Loughlin, Roby, Graham etc, then we are light years behind them.
Also for a few years now I've heard people talk about these lads from Rylands that got signed up by St Helens. Who were they, did any of them have good careers with Saints? Would be interesting to see how different their experience was with Saints compared to if they'd signed for us...did Saints show more patience with them? Better coaching to develop them into top players?
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"We are not miles behind Wigan, Saints and Leeds, if the metric is percentage of players that come through in to the first team, or that get a good number of games.
If the metric is, percentage of real top class players - good enough to be difference makers in Grand Finals, like Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, O'Loughlin, Roby, Graham etc, then we are light years behind them.
Also for a few years now I've heard people talk about these lads from Rylands that got signed up by St Helens. Who were they, did any of them have good careers with Saints? Would be interesting to see how different their experience was with Saints compared to if they'd signed for us...did Saints show more patience with them? Better coaching to develop them into top players?'"
I'm fairly sure that our resident WA9'er will inform us that they're currently on the way to winning several GF's, as Saints youth policy (like anything else they do) is far superior to ours.
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| Quote ="Or thane"
Now i'm not saying all these kids will become super league players, but at saints you see the chances the youngsters get.
Makes you wonder whether our kids just aren't up to scratch or it is Price blocking progression.
'"
I remember when TS was coach, and we were pretty sure of getting a playoff spot, he would sometimes rotate the squad and rest a few first teamers to play some young Academy players. The reaction on here was always "well if the club is going to pick and choose their games I'm going to pick and choose what games I go to watch..."
Its the same as would happen every year when the team line up was published for the Boxing Day or New Years' pre season games. It would mostly be Academy players, and people were like "£15 to watch the Academy? forget it". The fans just wanted to see our new Aussie signings get a run out, they didn't want to watch these local teenagers.
We saw it when Price played Ashton over Ratchford....outrage on here! Ratchford was apparently our greatest ever SL signing and Price dared put a lad who'd signed from Swinton, at fullback ahead of him.
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| The only measure of success we need to worry about wrt our Academy is the number that are playing on a regular basis for the club. At the moment it is 4, King, Currie, Cooper and Philbin, and that is miles behind Saints and Wigan.
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"I remember when TS was coach, and we were pretty sure of getting a playoff spot, he would sometimes rotate the squad and rest a few first teamers to play some young Academy players. The reaction on here was always "well if the club is going to pick and choose their games I'm going to pick and choose what games I go to watch..."
Its the same as would happen every year when the team line up was published for the Boxing Day or New Years' pre season games. It would mostly be Academy players, and people were like "£15 to watch the Academy? forget it". The fans just wanted to see our new Aussie signings get a run out, they didn't want to watch these local teenagers.
We saw it when Price played Ashton over Ratchford....outrage on here! Ratchford was apparently our greatest ever SL signing and Price dared put a lad who'd signed from Swinton, at fullback ahead of him.'"
That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.
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| Quote ="Or thane"That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.'"
Absolutely, a balancing act that is nigh on impossible to get right.
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| Quote ="Winslade's Offload"The only measure of success we need to worry about wrt our Academy is the number that are playing on a regular basis for the club. At the moment it is 4, King, Currie, Cooper and Philbin, and that is miles behind Saints and Wigan.'"
The only measure of success is whether we win the Grand Final. Any club can roll out its Academy players in the first team, it doesn't make it a success if they win feck all.
If we were fielding this all-home grown starting 13 in 2021, where do you think it would finish in SL? Would this be proof that our Academy was better than Wigans or Saints?
Gareth O'Brien
Rhys Williams
Toby King
Rhys Evans
Gene Ormsby
Riley Dean
Dec Patton
Mike Cooper (c)
Brad Dwyer
Ben Evans
Joe Philbin
Ben Currie
Harvey Livett
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| Quote ="Or thane"That's a fair point, Damned if you do and damned if you don't so to speak.'"
It's more like damned if you lose and praised if you win.
Why did Sir Alex Ferguson get so much praise for bringing through young players at United in the 1990s, but Dave O'Leary never got the same praise for doing that at both Leeds and Villa?
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| Is it not so much a failure to produce good quality players, but more effectively managing their transition into Superleague? We have had several ‘bright young stars’ come through and then a season or two later they’re on their way out.
Maybe playing a full strength team should be saved for big derby games and there should always be two or three young ones in the seventeen.
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"The only measure of success is whether we win the Grand Final. Any club can roll out its Academy players in the first team, it doesn't make it a success if they win feck all.
If we were fielding this all-home grown starting 13 in 2021, where do you think it would finish in SL? Would this be proof that our Academy was better than Wigans or Saints?
Gareth O'Brien
Rhys Williams
Toby King
Rhys Evans
Gene Ormsby
Riley Dean
Dec Patton
Mike Cooper (c)
Brad Dwyer
Ben Evans
Joe Philbin
Ben Currie
Harvey Livett'"
You misunderstand me. I am saying we only have four players in the squad that have come from the Academy that are of the right quality, the rest that were given opportunities have gone as they were simply not good enough. Perhaps I should have worded my post differently, particularly as the likes of Dec Patton has played over 100 games for us now.
So I am saying we need at least 8-9 players of the Currie, Philbin, King, Cooper quality in order to match the likes of Wigan and Saints. That is the gap that needs to be filled, and it's a big one.
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| Quote ="Robwire"Is it not so much a failure to produce good quality players, but more effectively managing their transition into Superleague? We have had several ‘bright young stars’ come through and then a season or two later they’re on their way out.
'"
I don't think so. A new academy player coming in still needs to lift his game to SL standard so they are simply falling at the last hurdle. Most of them will kick on to some extent and get games in the hope / expectation of improving further. If the coaching staff had failed then you would expect that some of our rejects would be picked up by other clubs and brought to SL standard, but I can't really think of many examples over the last 10 years or so ( possibly GOB ?). It will be interesting to see what happens to Harvey Livett. He probably falls into this category and played just under 50 games for us. But he was loaned to HKR this year and has now been released with rumours that he will be picked up by Salford.
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