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I remember a few years ago Tony Smith saying that they don't actually coach attacking moves and set plays, he leaves that all up to the players to work out.
I imagine most of that came from Briers rugby brain... So do we think its still left up to the players now?
Its all very good and well when you're scoring tries for fun and looking very dangerous. But in the opening 2 games we have looked flat and short on ideas, especially near the oppositions line. At one point against Leeds i thought we could have been camped on line all night and not scored a try... Then westwood wriggled through.
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Was thinking the exact same thing when i was drinking my coffee in Watford Gap services last night, i recommend coffee, everyone thinks clear on coffee.
Coffee for Atkins
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I also remember him saying this. We might need to think about this moving forward though. At that time we had experienced players making the decisions and playing against what they saw in front of them. Playing this way will probably lead to more errors during that stage of play. Don't get me wrong 2011 when we offloaded for fun came off most of the time and in doing so we scored a hat full of points.
Looking at that shower from Wigan. They play to a formula and the majority of the time it pays off. Food for thought here.
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Tend to agree - but aren't Wigan boring to watch......
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Smith did say this on a few occasions, I heard it straight from the horses mouth. He liked the players to solve the problem on how to unlock opponents but he was blessed with players like Briers and Hodgson who had terrific vision and game management ability. Now.....we don't.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"Was thinking the exact same thing when i was drinking my coffee in Watford Gap services last night, i recommend coffee, everyone thinks clear on coffee.
Coffee for Atkins'"
Does Coffee make you want to poo ? |
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Briers is still at the club, have him work with the team on attacking (if he isn't already which would surprise me hugely) problem solved. The currency backs do need to work on their own plays and ideas but with briers' knowledge of unlocking a defence it would be stupid not to use him.
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| Quote ="CW8"Briers is still at the club, have him work with the team on attacking (if he isn't already which would surprise me hugely) problem solved. '"
Just because Briers was a great player doesn't mean that will transfer as a coach, with players that can't do stuff he could.
Or we could get Andy Gregory and Garry Schofield to work with the team on attacking because what they don't know about unlocking a defence isn't worth knowing. |
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"Just because Briers was a great player doesn't mean that will transfer as a coach, with players that can't do stuff he could.
Or we could get Andy Gregory and Garry Schofield to work with the team on attacking because what they don't know about unlocking a defence isn't worth knowing.'"
A lot of the good aspects of Briers' attacking play wouldn't be easy to coach as a lot of it was instinctive. He'd see something that may only open up for a split second and - bumph! - he'd exploit it and we'd break the line/get a repeat set/score through him or a pass/kick from him. |
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon"Just because Briers was a great player doesn't mean that will transfer as a coach, with players that can't do stuff he could.
Or we could get Andy Gregory and Garry Schofield to work with the team on attacking because what they don't know about unlocking a defence isn't worth knowing.'"
I get your point but are you writing briers off as a coach because Andy Gregory and Garry schofield didn't do too well at it? If briers has the hunger to succeed as a coach then he will he just needs to work out which team level works best for him. Personally for now I would have him working with the first team he knows them all and could maybe get a little bit more out of them. I think maybe his best use in the long run could be working with young half backs but that is all for lee and the club to decide. |
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You sometimes find that the natural players, those born with the gift are the ones that struggle to coach, they just had talent and find it hard to convey that to others.
The ones who really had to work on it are the ones that know how to improve, look at football Fergie pretty average footballer, Mourinho didn't even play and Wenger was a nobody.
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Your right.
You could see how fergie could make SL management, he never made issues public and has great man management skills
Whereas Macbanana hasn't and has lost many players respect.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"You sometimes find that the natural players, those born with the gift are the ones that struggle to coach, they just had talent and find it hard to convey that to others.
The ones who really had to work on it are the ones that know how to improve, look at football Fergie pretty average footballer, Mourinho didn't even play and Wenger was a nobody.'"
people said that Glenn Hoddle used to get frustrated on the training ground because the players couldn't do what he was asking them to... So the players knew what he wanted, he would do it to show them how it was done... I think he fell out with Beckham at England training over something similar. |
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I wouldn't write Briers off but the other angle to why great players often don't do well as coaches is that usually they are very inexperienced, ie they get a head coach job early in their coaching career on the back of their name as a player, and they aren't experienced enough and make a botch of it and that kills their career.
The guys that didn't make it as a player in football, like Wenger, Mourinho, Andre Vilas Boas, have been doing coaching since their early to mid 20s, so by the time they are mid-late 30 they have bags of experience.
I'm not writing Briers off as a coach I'm just saying its not necessarily the solution to our problems in replacing him, just having him on the coaching staff.
If we want some added experience as a halfback coach, Sean Long has just been released by London Broncos.... www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/26316575 |
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I wouldn't write Briers off but the other angle to why great players often don't do well as coaches is that usually they are very inexperienced, ie they get a head coach job early in their coaching career on the back of their name as a player, and they aren't experienced enough and make a botch of it and that kills their career.
The guys that didn't make it as a player in football, like Wenger, Mourinho, Andre Vilas Boas, have been doing coaching since their early to mid 20s, so by the time they are mid-late 30 they have bags of experience.
I'm not writing Briers off as a coach I'm just saying its not necessarily the solution to our problems in replacing him, just having him on the coaching staff.
If we want some added experience as a halfback coach, Sean Long has just been released by London Broncos.... www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/26316575 | |
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Quote ="morleys_deckchair"people said that Glenn Hoddle used to get frustrated on the training ground because the players couldn't do what he was asking them to... So the players knew what he wanted, he would do it to show them how it was done... I think he fell out with Beckham at England training over something similar.'"
OT but an interesting read on Glenn Hoddle: this is a blog post by Rohan Ricketts who played for Spurs under him sabotagetimes.com/reportage/how- ... sing-room/
Quote What was interesting was how he spoke to players. His man management skills were, how can I say, different. Part of the problem was that he was such a good player – even long after he retired – and he expected everyone else to be able to do what he could.
There was one time in training when we were working on free-kicks and he told one senior player, “If you can’t do this then I don’t know why you’re even playing football”. When we were all at Wolves together after Spurs, Hoddle held me and Paul Ince in high esteem but anyone who had a faint heart would feel overwhelmed by him.
Another problem for Glenn was that he is very spiritual which doesn’t sit right in football because most people are very superficial. I remember one time there was a player who was injured and the manager put his hand on their knee. The player was like “what?!” The gaffer had a strong belief that we are more powerful than we think we are but I’m still not exactly sure what he was trying to do.'" |
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Quote ="morleys_deckchair"people said that Glenn Hoddle used to get frustrated on the training ground because the players couldn't do what he was asking them to... So the players knew what he wanted, he would do it to show them how it was done... I think he fell out with Beckham at England training over something similar.'"
OT but an interesting read on Glenn Hoddle: this is a blog post by Rohan Ricketts who played for Spurs under him sabotagetimes.com/reportage/how- ... sing-room/
Quote What was interesting was how he spoke to players. His man management skills were, how can I say, different. Part of the problem was that he was such a good player – even long after he retired – and he expected everyone else to be able to do what he could.
There was one time in training when we were working on free-kicks and he told one senior player, “If you can’t do this then I don’t know why you’re even playing football”. When we were all at Wolves together after Spurs, Hoddle held me and Paul Ince in high esteem but anyone who had a faint heart would feel overwhelmed by him.
Another problem for Glenn was that he is very spiritual which doesn’t sit right in football because most people are very superficial. I remember one time there was a player who was injured and the manager put his hand on their knee. The player was like “what?!” The gaffer had a strong belief that we are more powerful than we think we are but I’m still not exactly sure what he was trying to do.'" | |
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Didn't Hoddle bring a spiritualist in to lift his players fortunes ? Even Mystic Meg couldn't get me 6 winning lottery numbers.
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| Decent read that Sally
Quote ="ninearches"Didn't Hoddle bring a spiritualist in to lift his players fortunes ? Even Mystic Meg couldn't get me 6 winning lottery numbers.'"
Eileen Drury i believe her name was... faith healer.
He was the last manager to lose the England managers job for non football reasons i believe.. Didn't he come out and publicly say that disabled people were being punished for something they had done in a past life? |
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I think his words were taken out of context.
He said something along the lines of ..We're born with 2 arms 2 legs and half a brain for a reason.
The media then reflected that if you didn't have these then that was also for a reason.
That labour sports minister tony somebody put pressure on to get him removed as coach.
Even so it was a pretty dumb thing to say.
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It has been touched on already here, but how does somebody coach what was instinctive to them to other players who don't have them instincts?
Can you coach instinct?
Briers could coach the players about scenarios, i.e. if this happens, then do this, but if something else happens then actually do this instead etc.
If it is not instinctive to the player he is coaching then the player will have to think about the scenario and by the time his thought process has worked out the play the scenario requires, the opportunity may be gone or he been tackled.
The reason Briers was so good and could unlock a defence, was that he didn't have to think about it. It was instinctive.
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Most coahes dont coach "moves" because the chance of all the aspects being right i.e players in the corect position defense being where we want them, speed of the ptb etc etc are very rarely correct. So they coach individual aspects and let the players put the rest together on the pitch "play whats in front of you" is whats needed in a game?
And this only happens with confidence of the attaking players with each other and this takes time to happen.
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Well again it comes down in the end to players and the quality of the execution.
When a team has a poor kicking game, its usually because of poor kicking, not that the attacking coach has told the kicker to put every kick straight to the opposition fullback.
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Just watched the 2012 CCF again, how far we have fallen from then until now. Our spread plays were so slick and incisive, Hodgson having as much influence as Briers.
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Watch 2009 again.
Never seen Warrington so switch on and attack minded in a single game since Boyd's memorable Premiership win v Halifax.
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| Quote ="marshman777"Most coahes dont coach "moves" because the chance of all the aspects being right i.e players in the corect position defense being where we want them, speed of the ptb etc etc are very rarely correct. So they coach individual aspects and let the players put the rest together on the pitch "play whats in front of you" is whats needed in a game?
And this only happens with confidence of the attaking players with each other and this takes time to happen.'"
So what does TS do....play Myler who hasn't got the natural ability but has bags of confidence & thinks he's undroppable.....or play G O'B who's got natural ability but not much confidence due to TS dropping him or shipping out to different clubs. A run of games would do G O'Bs confidence & in due course game & attacking skills the world of good. Mylers supposed to be one of our main playmakers & is one of our highest paid players. |
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I find it hard to believe no attacking plays are coached. You surely videos are watched and discussions had over what play should have occurred. Also surely grubber kicks are practiced. Corner kicks. Inside balls etc.
You can coach when exactly to use a plAy. But you can practice the skills.
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