I mean if Briers had stayed at Saints in 1997, and Warrington had signed Long in 1997, how do you reckon history would have turned out?

From our point of view, how do you think Long would have gone with us? Would we have been better or worse during the DVDV, Plange or Cullen era? Would Long have made it to the GB team had he played for Warrington? Would he have brought more consistency than Briers (in the early days)?

What about from Saints point of view....do you reckon they would have been an even better side with Briers there? What would Briers have done with targets like Gardner and Meli to kick to, or with a back line to spread the ball wide with guys like Newlove, Gidley, Albert etc? Would Briers have been GB first choice halfback for a decade...?

Difficult one.
Briers has the better passing and kicking game, but Long had more pace and was a better defender.
They would have made a very good halfback pair.

I agree they would have been good together. You could say in the early days, Briers and Martyn would have been too similar and Long's running game was a great foil for Martyn.

One for you then Rogues what about having Briers or Long at Wigan, instead of Tony Smith, Lam and Leuluai, how do you think that would have turned out?

I wouldn't swap either of them for Lam, he was the complete scrum half, but Lam and Long could have been very good, as could Briers and Barrett.

btw if you back through my posts I have always rated Briers with ball in hand, it's just his defence that has been a big problem for him over the years. Scott Dureau (sp) is very similar at Catalan.

he drives a peugot, scott dureau

If we had kept Sculthorpe & Harris we wouldn't have needed Briers.
Goulding was still at Saints so Briers had to go somewhere.

At least we didn't get Goulding, Briers has turned out better than that sh*t house.

I thought we had gone for Goulding before Briers. But he wanted too much to sign for us.

I'd be very surprised if we had gone for Goulding, regardless of finances.

I remember the Goulding to Warrington thing being reported in the papers, as I remember it, it was shortly after Briers joined us rather than before, Briers had been with us for about a month or so when something went on at Saints and there was a serious fall out between Goulding and the club and they wanted rid, and the story was they tried to get Briers back from us and offered Goulding. In the end Goulding stayed at Saints whilst an uneasy relationship simmered for a while, then they ended up selling him to Huddersfield and signing Long from Widnes.

Goulding was a terrific player but he was one of those guys like Gazza or Joey Barton in that you can't fault his commitment or desire to win but he was too highly strung and wound up and his personality just ended up disrupting the team he was in. Goulding's career was effectively over at 25, after that last season at Saints he spent the rest of his days at crap sides like Hudds, Wakey, Salford and Leigh which was a shame for a player of his quality.

In fairness to Briers and Long, whilst a lot has been written about them being characters off the field, neither of them were disruptive influences to a team like Goulding was.

Depends what you read/believe. A mate of mine spoke to Henry Fa'afili just before he moved away from Warrington, he allegedly said the sole reason he never won anything with Warrington was down to Briers and his overwhelming influence at the club at that time. I personally never believed my mate when he told me, I found it hard to believe that Moran would put money into the club and allow Briers to ruin it all.

I heard it was because of the Henry shuffle

You look at Briers now with this impression he's some kind of club legend. But I think the credit for that should be given primarily to Tony Smith. He's turned Briers into the influential player he is now. When Lee left Saints the rejection hurt him and he was never the rounded, professional and calming influence he is today. The potential was there but he was in danger of never fulfilling it until the day Smith arrived. If he had stayed at Saints I'm sure both would have been reasonably successful, but Saints wouldn't have had the glorious spell we did have. Sean Long is the best halfback to have ever played in Super League (Forgetting A Johns' cameo) and was inspirational for Saints in a way Briers' could never be.

Long, if he doesn't fall victim to post-retirement-blues drinking, will go on to be become a fantastic coach. You can see his influence at Salford already.

P W D L F A PTS
2 0 0 2 20 62 0

You could also see his influence at Hull a few weeks ago.

two paragraphs of rubbish it just flows from your keyboard it really does. this was a sensible subject that even rogues put some decent input to, you just turn into Wire player can not possibly be as good as a Saints player drivel.

To state as fact that a player that took your club to a wembley final could never go onto be an inspirational player at saints IF he had stayed is complete rubbish.

and Tony Smith has actually made us less reliant on Briers than ever before, that was the first thing he did at this club.

Having a paddy because you don't agree with me isn't very constructive. Rogues valid input was that they were both rubbish and Adrian 'Porno' Lam was better.

How has my post that Long was better for Saints than Briers could have been angered you?

You shouldn't underestimate the impact working under Smith has had on Briers.

So you're saying that what Briers needed was a good coach in a professional environment - wouldn't he have got that at Saints?

I did like Sean Long but I think Briers was a better all round player. Long's best years were the early part of his career when he had genuine pace, he was like Danny McGuire in that once he had found a gap it was a try as he would run off the chasers, but he had more to his game than McGuire. After Brandon Costin smashed his knee in 2001 he lost the edge of pace, and he was still a good player but was limited compared to Briers, certainly he didn't have Briers' kicking game, but Long did have a good rugby brain and when Saints were in big games he did the job required.

As for best halfback to have ever played in Super League, I would rate Lam, Langer, Burrow and Briers ahead of Long.

Nor should you over-estimate it. Briers is rightly considered a legend for his career over 15 years, with the acheivements of the last few years being just rewards for all he has done. He's had to play in some average and some very poor teams during his time but has always shone himself. Just imagine what his record would look like had he had the sort of players around him that Long had throughout his career!

Briers has been the most influential player at Warrington for the last 15 years, and hasn't just become a 'legend' since TS took over. Arguably his best form was 04-06 under Cullen but he did lack the consistency of later years.
Long was a great player but had Briers played with the quality sides that Saints enjoyed
then he would have been equally as successful.
Briers becoming the clubs record points scorer last year can only be down to incredible skill and ability displayed over an entire career and not solely due to the influence of a great coach during the last three seasons.

Long, as good as he was, has been fortunate enough to play in some outstanding St Helens teams. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't detract from his individual abilities, as he was a match winner all day long. However, if you contrast his career with Briers in terms of the clubs they represented, the difference is absolutely massive and impossible to ignore. Briers and Long have always has their flaws [iaway[/i from the game, however, on the field, they have both displayed brilliance.

In an interview with Lee recently, he openly admitted that he wished he was starting his career again because the situation we find ourselves in as a club is very very promising, particularly in terms of coaching set up and playing personnel. Lee has flourished in recent years, but this is predominantly due to the fact that he now, unfortunately for him in his 30's, finds himself in such a fantastically well balanced squad of players. Therefore, I've no doubt that had history taken a different course, Briers would have more than one Lance Todd Trophy under his belt, plus many more team and individual honours.

I agree I think it's a myth that Briers was inconsistent through his career up till Tony Smith arrived in 2009 and then he became consistent. It's true that in his early days he was a bit up and down and he got more consistent with time but I would say he became a really consistent performer in the second half of Cullen's reign. 2006 was his first really big season when he was IMO the best halfback in SL and has stayed more or less that every season since. Burrow and McGuire are good at what they do but Briers has been the best all round half in recent years. I would have said Briers before 2006 was similar to what Danny Brough is now.

Tony Smith's influence on Briers has helped through improving the rest of the team so he is playing in a team of winners, he has definitely mellowed since 2009, before then he was often frustrated with the team (as we all were) and so would lose his rag at the ref.

I think had Briers been at Saints he would have been in a winning side right from the start and so it might have settled him down earlier, he would also have probably won many GB caps and had a lot of trophies. He would have been regarded alongside guys like Andy Gregory and Tony Myler as highly decorated greats of the game.

For me to think about this question I have to consider the ambition of the individual player at the time they made their moves in the mid to late 90's and the 5 years after that.
Warrington at the time were going through a process of cost cutting, Offloading players like Sculthorpe and Vagana. Saints were signing players like Newlove, Sculthorpe etc.
Fair points being made about Lee Briers playing in teams with some poor players but during these times did he ever look like he was going to leave?
Danny Orr made a big step going from Cas to Wigan and some might say he failed, At least he showed ambition to better himself.
Now with Briers do we call that loyalty or a lack of ambition / content to sit in his comfort zone at Warrington? Why did somebody like Wigan not pick him up instead of players like Tony Smith or Willie Peters. Would Lee have been content with playing under Paul Cullen at Warrington for the rest of his playing days.

If Long had come to Warrington in 1997 I suspect that it would only have been for a few years and then on to a bigger club with more ambition at the time (Leeds, Wigan, Bradford)

I felt a bit sorry for Briers when he was sent packing to Warrington after securing Saints a Wembley appearance. He was a talent at half back that was ignored because of Goulding's preceeding reputation.

In terms of consistency he never seemed to deliver the goods as mentioned until the latter part of Cullen's regime. I'll never forget one night I was in my local and he made people move out of their seats, coming across as the big "I am", and that came across on the field of play also... However as mentioned he was probably the best player in what had been some mediocre sides you have had. Over the last 5 years he seems to have mellowed more and is letting his Rugby do the talking rather than letting his mouth run, although we saw the petulant side to him when we were in town last season (I know it didn't alter the result and that you had our number last season).

I think had he been given the opportunity at Saints the honours individually and collectively would have been a much larger haul than the last three seasons... I'm imagining a Half Back Pairing of Long and Briers and how good that would have been at Saints....

Well I don't think you can say Briers lacked ambition with his move. At the time Saints were Super League champions and had just won back to back Challenge Cups with Goulding and Martyn in the halves who were 25/26 at the time so potentially could have been first choice for the next 5 more years at least. Briers could have been looking at being an understudy till his mid 20s had he stayed. Briers wasn't to know that Goulding and Saints would have a serious fall out just after he left, and had he stayed, he would have probably got his shot.

As for why he stayed with Warrington, he probably never got an offer from a top club. It was well documented that Widnes were in for him but there were never any strong stories that one of the big clubs were chasing him. The year he was most likely to move, when he came off contract in 2002, was probably the worst year of his own form (and the clubs), and with just Widnes in for him he resigned with us. Wigan signing Tony Smith instead of Briers was obvious, Smith was a GB halfback and Briers was a teenager at the time, and he was still under contract with us when they signed Willie Peters and I doubt we would have been looking to sell at that time when we had just signed Langer. The bigger question for Wigan is why did they get rid of Long to sign those guys!

Also I don't know if you can just say that staying at Warrington is a negative and shows lack of ambition. Compare Mike Gregory and Billy McGinty. McGinty signed for a dominant Wigan team and picked up trophies and sailed into the GB side on the back of it. But does that mean that he had the courage to test himself where Mike Gregory wanted to stay in comfort zone...? Who was testing themselves more, Gregory or McGinty?