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| were we defending?
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| From what I've read/heard, Joel woke up in the ambulance. Whether this is true or not, nobody can see a team mate/friend in that situation and not have it play on their minds for a while. It would only be natural if our players finished the half, went through the interval and even into the 2nd half with their thoughts quite possibly more on Joels condition than the job in hand.
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| Quote ="Thelonius"From what I've read/heard, Joel woke up in the ambulance. Whether this is true or not, nobody can see a team mate/friend in that situation and not have it play on their minds for a while. It would only be natural if our players finished the half, went through the interval and even into the 2nd half with their thoughts quite possibly more on Joels condition than the job in hand.'"
Unfortunately injuries are part of the game.
All of those Warrington players will of experienced players being taken from the field before but as pro-rugby league player's they must adjust to unexpected changes.
I hope Joel a speedy recovery, his try was superb.
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| Quote ="dany1979"Unfortunately injuries are part of the game.
'"
You have to be ready for anything and everything. Saints lost wellens in 2002, wigan lost richards in 2010. Both teams won. Champions teams find a way.
Wire don't have the versatility in the backrow to allow players to slot into the centres (allowing the centre to cover wing/fullback) So they should have had a back on the bench. You have hogdson on the bench and if all is going well you have an experienced head who allows ratchford to move up into the halves if the game needs a change, or you have a plan b if things go tits up like last night. For example, had leeds had the same situation they would have been able to cope more adequatley because 2 of the backrowers delany and ablett are both good centres so it would have been easy to re-jig the backline. Other teams have the same which is why they don't have a 'utility player' on tghe bench.
If your backrowers can't really play centre and you have no utility or back on the bench you are asking for trouble, and smith got it.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"You have to be ready for anything and everything. Saints lost wellens in 2002, wigan lost richards in 2010. Both teams won. Champions teams find a way.
'"
And yet Saints managed to lose four grand finals in a row, and Leeds lost five Challenge Cup finals in recent times: if they were champion teams how come they didn't find a way to win them?
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| I'll try to be fair in my view here.
I'm not sure it was the two injuries that really were the pivotal aspects on Saturday. As a wigan I thought we were in control of the game until you made your subs in the first half. In the first 20 minutes wigan blew 3 clear chances to score. The first try from wire came against a run of wigan dominating and then for ten minutes you blew us off the park.
After that your forwards were clearly tired and all that wigan needed was a try to keep themselves in. The key to wigan winning this was to make it a contest. Warrington have the stronger team but it's clear for all to see that they blow teams out early because there isn't the stamina to dominate the top teams for the whole match. At the 50th minute I commented that wire were already flat out and I quietly thought it may have been our day.
I'm not sure that the injuries were key as a number of Wigans trys came from carving wire up down the middle. We also scored twice down our right hand side where we had been creating opportunities all game. The only other try was Richards which by then the match was over.
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| thanks for trying to be fair.
I'd hate to see you NOT trying to be fair
fookin ell
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| Quote ="ChrisPie2"I'll try to be fair in my view here.
I'm not sure it was the two injuries that really were the pivotal aspects on Saturday. As a wigan I thought we were in control of the game until you made your subs in the first half. In the first 20 minutes wigan blew 3 clear chances to score. The first try from wire came against a run of wigan dominating and then for ten minutes you blew us off the park.
After that your forwards were clearly tired and all that wigan needed was a try to keep themselves in. The key to wigan winning this was to make it a contest. Warrington have the stronger team but it's clear for all to see that they blow teams out early because there isn't the stamina to dominate the top teams for the whole match. At the 50th minute I commented that wire were already flat out and I quietly thought it may have been our day.
I'm not sure that the injuries were key as a number of Wigans trys came from carving wire up down the middle. We also scored twice down our right hand side where we had been creating opportunities all game. The only other try was Richards which by then the match was over.'"
Your wrong. I honestly believe our forwards were walking all over yours in the first 30ish minutes. We were easily making 40 / 50 yds each set. Your opportunities came from structured attacks within your own half, generally against the run of play.
Plus also, please name me one side who has the 'stamina to dominate top teams for the whole match' please? Does this comment suggest that Wigan can? Id like to investigate this a little further if you don't mind. In my mind 'dominating a top team for the whole match' would mean lots of points scored against not many conceded? Would you agree? I mean, you could say that a team could be dominant with possession without scoring lots of points but is that really dominant? You could equally say that a team could be dominant with field position without scoring lots of points but, again, would that be truly dominant?
So top teams would be Hudds, Us, Leeds and you? Ok, well you didn't dominate us in the 1st half of the final and didn't beat us the rest of the season, so you couldn't dominate us for any matches let alone whole matches. Hudds beat you twice in the league and, if I remember rightly, were on top for the first 10 / 20 mins of your playoff game, so you didn't dominate them for any full games. You are 2 wins from four against Leeds and, given your biggest winning margin was only 10 points that would also suggest that you didn't dominate them either for any full games.
Unless, when you say big teams, you mean Salford, London or Widnes? In which case I'd accept that you were dominant for a couple of games.
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| Quote ="AJC"Combination of things IMO, the obvious incidents (as discussed) overall benefitted Wigan. I also think the wire players allowed themselves to mentally relax as the 3rd of the quick fire tries was scored. To be uber honest I've always felt players such as Bridge, Atkins & Briers are great when things are going well but not capable of producing the goods when they're up against it. That said, as with any big game, possession is the key. Wigan monopolized in that dept 2nd half'"
I think you make a very good point about the Wire mentally switching off after that third try. The celebrations and Westwood kissing to the camera was illustrative of a team that thought that they had the game won. And Briers is a typical English half back. When his forwards are dominate, he looks very good. When he does not have the time, he looks gash.
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| Another who thinks that having to re-shape your back-line after two injuries with a bench of four forwards to replace them didn't lead to the loss of the game is clearly high.
I have also heard that one of the other players we had on the pitch also suffered an injury that should have led to him being replaced but circumstances meant he couldn't be.
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| Quote ="Paullie"Your wrong. I honestly believe our forwards were walking all over yours in the first 30ish minutes. We were easily making 40 / 50 yds each set.'"
You're right, they did, but I suspect that was a factor in their collapse. In contrast to your approach we defended quite conservatively, as we have done throughout the playoffs (presumably a change of tac to reflect the additional stamina required in the playoffs where all your opposition are top teams). If you look at how we defended against Leeds we hung back and contained them almost perfectly, and this is demonstrated no better than when Burrow made his scampering runs which would have cut us open had we not hung back. Granted there is a risk in defending like this and it almost backfired on us as if anyone can take advantage of that defending style it is Wire, but we hung on and by half time the differences were taking their toll.
The second big factor was the decision not to take the two. It was a gamble by Tony Smith when he overruled Briers but one he perhaps had to take. Maybe he could see his team tiring and thought he needed to finish the game off there and then but in hindsight it was a mistake to think Grand Finals can be won in the 30th minute. Perhaps that six minute purple patch brought on a bit of hubris and caused him to disrespect his GF opponents.
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| Quote ="mark_m"Another who thinks that having to re-shape your back-line after two injuries with a bench of four forwards to replace them didn't lead to the loss of the game is clearly high.
I have also heard that one of the other players we had on the pitch also suffered an injury that should have led to him being replaced but circumstances meant he couldn't be.'"
i've since heard carvell shouldn't have been playing, and from reading the guardian last week, it seems a miracle that harrison is even setting foot on a rugby pitch at all this year. he didn't return in the second half in in effect we were rotating off one player.
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| Quote ="TheElectricGlidingWarrior"You're right, they did, but I suspect that was a factor in their collapse. In contrast to your approach we defended quite conservatively, as we have done throughout the playoffs (presumably a change of tac to reflect the additional stamina required in the playoffs where all your opposition are top teams). If you look at how we defended against Leeds we hung back and contained them almost perfectly, and this is demonstrated no better than when Burrow made his scampering runs which would have cut us open had we not hung back. Granted there is a risk in defending like this and it almost backfired on us as if anyone can take advantage of that defending style it is Wire, but we hung on and by half time the differences were taking their toll.
The second big factor was the decision not to take the two. It was a gamble by Tony Smith when he overruled Briers but one he perhaps had to take. Maybe he could see his team tiring and thought he needed to finish the game off there and then but in hindsight it was a mistake to think Grand Finals can be won in the 30th minute. Perhaps that six minute purple patch brought on a but Of hubris and caused him to disrespect his GF opponents.'"
If that is indeed the way you chose to defend then I agree its risky. Had circumstances been different, and at 16-2 down, it could have bitten you right on the backside.
Having said that I agree with your point for taking the 2. We should have gone for the kick and, it seems, all the players knew it was the right thing to do but, when you look at the purple patch of ours immediately before that, we could potentially have gone on to get another try. Certainly Bridge didn't help by going into touch on the subsequent 2nd tackle therefore surrendering the ball to you over a minute earlier than you should have had it. I don't think not taking the 2 pointer was our downfall but it would have run the clock down sufficiently to get to the break, probably, with a 16point lead rather than a 10 point lead.
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| There was no collapse.
Wigan should of been 3/4 trys up had they not made a mess of the final pass or took the wrong option.
Warrington went up the other end and scored 3 quickfire trys that went against the general run of play.
It was obvious that if Wigan could manage to get field position again the points would eventually come and they did.
Warringtons forwards were moved around by the much more mobile Wigan forwards leaving them shot after 50 mins and unable to dominate the game like they expected.
Once Wigan pulled the game back to 16-12 Warrington never recovered and Wigan sensed the tiredness and panic in the Warrington team and put the sword to them with an almost perfect second half display.
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| Quote ="The_Enforcer"There was no collapse.
Wigan should of been 3/4 trys up had they not made a mess of the final pass or took the wrong option.'"
So Wigan didn't score because they fluffed it rather than good, albeit stretched, scrambling defence?
And how can you say there was no collapse? Regardless of the reasons, our complete defensive structure was shot and we were rotating off two (some say one) interchanges. I'm not suggesting that we would have kept Wigan try-less if circumstances were different but the collapse was there for all to see.
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| Quote ="ChrisPie2"
I'm not sure that the injuries were key as a number of Wigans trys came from carving wire up down the middle. .'"
I'e just been down the ground to sort out season tickets and grabbed a quick word with one of the backroom staff going into reception ..... Ratchfords injury we all saw, but he also confirmed that Myler, Carvell and Harrison all sustained leg injuries which meant they should have been at very least rotated, but as Grix & Westwood had sustained head injuries requiring constant off-field treatment, they couldn't be taken off without leaving less than 13 on the pitch. So, with JM in cloud cuckoo land, Briers at fullback, Bridge on the wing, and Riley trying to fill in at wing, fullback, and standoff, is it any wonder Wigan were able to find gaps all over the pitch.
We know Wane is a brawler turned rugby player, but no wonder he's "Proud" of his lads ....... I don't mind the game being a brawl involving a ball, so long as we all know it from the off. When Thaiday cannonballs Charnleys knees and SBW uses McIlorum as a wishbone in the World Cup, lets see if he puffs out his chest and says how 'proud' he is then! .....
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| Quote ="Paullie"If that is indeed the way you chose to defend then I agree its risky. Had circumstances been different, and at 16-2 down, it could have bitten you right on the backside.
Having said that I agree with your point for taking the 2. We should have gone for the kick and, it seems, all the players knew it was the right thing to do but, when you look at the purple patch of ours immediately before that, we could potentially have gone on to get another try. Certainly Bridge didn't help by going into touch on the subsequent 2nd tackle therefore surrendering the ball to you over a minute earlier than you should have had it. I don't think not taking the 2 pointer was our downfall but it would have run the clock down sufficiently to get to the break, probably, with a 16point lead rather than a 10 point lead.'"
It's only my interpretation that we defended conservatively, based on our other payoff performances. I could be wrong but I think Shaun Wane has shown a maturity in his approach this year so I wouldn't discount it.
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| Carvell played with a cracked rib, Morley with a fractured cheekbone and then take out 3 players in 10 mins and a lot of sides would struggle.
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| Quote ="Paullie"So Wigan didn't score because they fluffed it rather than good, albeit stretched, scrambling defence?
And how can you say there was no collapse? Regardless of the reasons, our complete defensive structure was shot and we were rotating off two (some say one) interchanges. I'm not suggesting that we would have kept Wigan try-less if circumstances were different but the collapse was there for all to see.'"
I agree with all of that. And we could also say that Joel could have scored from his first chance - which would have been four tries "against the run of play"
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www.superleague.co.uk/report/9683
Some of the stats are incredible in the difference. The major difference is the metres gained by the bench players, Morley made the most for you with 49m, Flower made over double that.
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www.superleague.co.uk/report/9683
Some of the stats are incredible in the difference. The major difference is the metres gained by the bench players, Morley made the most for you with 49m, Flower made over double that.
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| After reading the comments here and after suffering from the loss i can only summarize as follows:
We won the first half and they won the second. We got injuries and they didin't. We got tired and they didn't. They won and we didin't
The thing that nags me is that we didn't in the early second half push on, we gave them confidence which they exploited very well. It was similar to the way we failed last year our best players did not perform again, for whatever reason
All we can do is regroup and look forward to the new season. The club need to unveil somthing to get us all raring to go
Well done to them.
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| Interesting that Sky have removed Hansens tackle on Ratchford from their 'highlights' ...... I still maintain had Morley held up Tomkins for Westwood to dive across his legs, we'd have seen the first yellow (or red?) at a GF.
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| Quote ="Fuzzy-Duck"Carvell played with a cracked rib, Morley with a fractured cheekbone and then take out 3 players in 10 mins and a lot of sides would struggle.'"
Yes this is what I have been told.
If the injuries hadn't happened to five players we would have won. We had forwards in the backs and not even 13 fit men on the field.
Quite frankly anyone who says different is an outright idiot.
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| Said it before, I'll sum it up in 3 words....
No substitute backs!
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| Quote ="Fuzzy-Duck"Carvell played with a cracked rib, Morley with a fractured cheekbone and then take out 3 players in 10 mins and a lot of sides would struggle.'"
Geez, theres alot of injuries coming out of the wood work now. Is there anyone in the warrington team who wasn't playing seemingly half dead?
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