So, just to be clear, We lose a final to Leeds having beaten them in the CC because we lack mental toughness. Saints lose 5 to essentially the same team but that was because Leeds were an exceptional team. Makes perfect sense.

Funny how you fail to mention the 2013 GF defeat to Wigan after being 14 points up at one point in the game before Wigan scored 28 unanswered points?

IMO if you are 14 points up at any stage in a Grand Final and the opposition score 28 unanswered points to lift the trophy then there was definitely a lack of mental toughness within that Wolves team on that occasion
Now that does make perfect sense

Brian McDermott coaching that side in 2013 and it would have been your year as they would have won it by plenty.

Maybe 2021?

Or injuries, significant juries causing major disruption may be a further reason.

That is a very silly example. Wigan did come back but blimey losing Monaghan & Ratchford probably was a teensy weensy factor.
Forget mental toughness in this one.

Joking aren’t you? The amount of leaks that come out the club fans will know straight away.

I mean I knew on Wednesday afternoon that Price was off next year.

The media are putting Lee Briers up as a possible, why would people think he would be a candidate.

This absolutely this.

It's just lazy journalism. Alternatively, perhaps they might have solved one of life's great mysteries and determined what he actually does and it turns out he is a frustrated genius of a coach being held back at every turn. I would put Hendo in front of Briers should a temporary internal appointment be necessary as at least he has head coach experience and to be fair sounds very knowledgeable when interviewed. Howeever, both have been part of the recent 'plodder' years regime so are either of them any good ?

It's just lazy journalism. Alternatively, perhaps they might have solved one of life's great mysteries and determined what he actually does and it turns out he is a frustrated genius of a coach being held back at every turn. I would put Hendo in front of Briers should a temporary internal appointment be necessary as at least he has head coach experience and to be fair sounds very knowledgeable when interviewed. However, both have been part of the recent 'plodder' years regime so are either of them any good ?

I agree, that team had already won 3 Challenge Cups by that point so its not like they were a team of big game bottlers. Also Leeds lost to both Warrington and Wigan in the playoffs leading up to that Grand Final and Brian McDermott was their coach so it is a bit of a stretch to say "if Brian McDermott had been there we wouldn't have lost..."

I agree with the Biff is Back's general point about Leeds being on a different level in terms of having players who knew how to win, you can't just shoehorn that into every single example as in any individual game factors like losing key players or getting bad refs decisions can be decisive. Over a long period of time luck should even out and when you count up trophies it tells the true story about Leeds and the rest.

The part that I think Wire fans get wrong about that era is when they say we had the best squad in those years. Leeds had a better starting 13 than us, even at our peak, because of their core guys of Sinfield, Peacock, Burrow, McGuire. We were both ageing teams to an extent but they had more miles left on the clock than ours. I would have swapped their squad for ours just to get their core You knew that core of players was well set up to win.

In that era I usually felt we would be stronger than all our opponents - I fancied us against Saints, and against Wigan we were evenly matched but I felt we had the edge. Against Leeds it was different. In the 2011 home semi and 2012 GF I felt apprehensive before the game and during the games there was an aura of extreme pressure, even when we were ahead, I always felt like Sinfield and co had a measure of control even when behind. I wonder if the players felt the same.

Did it need the core changing or would Sinfield in our team in, say, 2011 been enough? For a start, he wouldn't have been able to kick the penalty in the semi final that year!!

Good post that Sally

There is no simple answer though is there. If it was such a steely spine how did they lose to us in the CC.Sporting contests at their best are about the finest margins. Look at last years GF. Nothing to choose between the teams but it gets won on a fluke

If that's the case with all the "leaks that come out of the club", we'll know who will be the coach for 2021 and how much time they have to asses the squad.

I agree, Leeds didn't win every big game, they lost some CC Finals and lost some playoffs too, although I think the difference between their records in the CC and the GF reflects them prioritising the GF. They were set up to peak in September/October every year and were often ropey mid season. Other teams would win the CC and then drop a gear for the rest of the season, although fair play to Leeds, they ended up winning the treble in Sinfield and Peacock's last year.

We didn't have a bad core of senior players, in Warrington history that was our best in decades, when we had Morley, Briers, Monaghan and Hodgson. They just weren't as good as the Leeds guys which is borne out by the trophy count.

Another big point about Leeds, when it comes to mental toughness, was they seemed to be unaffected by losing. No team can win every big game but if Leeds lost a Challenge Cup final it didn't have any relevance on the rest of the season. If they lost a playoff they still came back next year the same. They would go on bad runs mid season and the fans and local press would be out for McDermott and they would get it together by the playoffs. Wigan under Wane had this quality too. I always felt with Wire that bad results had a bigger significance and could affect us more. That was the achilles heel in the Cullen era when we had fine players but a bad performance would put us in a spiral. It got better for a while under TS but we weren't quite as able to dismiss bad performances as Leeds and Wigan. It has now re-emerged as a problem under Price similar to how it was under Cullen.

All good points SC but I don’t think the longevity of the Leeds team should be underestimated either, by which I mean the length of time that core played together compared to our group.
The “head dropping” or panic when the opposition got a roll on was definitely an issue though, you could sense it happening. Saints in particular used to cause it.

That's another interesting factor - the aura that teams who have been winning for a while can build, and the effect it has on intimidating others.

Wigan used to have it in the 80s and 90s, Saints had it for a long time when Cunningham and co played there, Leeds had it, the Kangaroos always have it. In football, Man Utd had it and now City have it although not to the same extent.

If another team is ahead, they always sense that the comeback will happen at some point and once they get a score back, the other team gets jitters and starts to panic.

You wonder how many extra wins, having an aura like that causes, especially those 'come from behind' wins. The 5-3 United v Spurs game was a classic. Spurs just melted.

What is also interesting, is how quickly an aura like that can vanish - often with the loss of a coach or a couple of legendary players. United basically lost it the first year after SAF retired, under Moyes, and have never had it back. Wigan lost it in the first couple of years of Super League. Even though they have had good teams since, they've not been able to get that aura of invincibility that Saints and Leeds have had since.

We never had it, even in 2010-13, we would steamroller some teams, especially at home, but I don't think anyone was scared of us, or felt that if they were 18 points up, that we would pull it back. I also don't think Bradford ever had it, they were just an upmarket version of us under TS, except their peak lasted twice as long and they won more trophies. They intimidated teams physically for a while but they never had that invincibility about them, you sensed there was a soft underbelly if you could get at them. Remember when they lost a big lead against us at Wilderspool, when Allan Langer started ripping them in the second half, they were rattled and lost it. I can't imagine the later Saints or Leeds teams losing that lead to that Wire team.

Re, 2013 and Ratchford takeout.
...when you see Lee Briers packing down backrow in the scrum, you know there is a catastrophe.
(Hodgson on the bench and history would have changed back then)

We always have big debates about our choice of subs.
Most prior to a game demand 4 forwards. e.g. on our last game v Hull. When Price got so much stick for picking a back on the bench.
This game v Wigan was one example where we would have loved to have had a back to come on after Monaghan & Ratchford went off.

SC certainly certain teams have the aura you talk about. Then there is the “hoodoo” issue, Saints definitely had the hex over us for years. That undoubtedly can develop into mental fragility and again especially against Saints you had the feeling that if they could score against us no matter how far behind they were they could always come back, the fans clearly felt the same.
Interesting that the “hoodoo” feeling has gone if not the occasional costly lapse in concentration.
Another issue that I remain convinced about is that if we score too early, we let off the intensity thinking the game will be an easy win, only to get bitten. It being very difficult to raise intensity once you have let it go.

Hindsight, the best coach in the world!

Interesting subject that the Biff has brought up and Sally and others have expanded on. For a long time I have thought that we crumble under pressure.
This could be due to a number of factors:-
A) We have struggled with rotation of the forwards going back to the days of Hill and Sims. When they were off the pitch you knew that whatever lead we had would be eroded when they were off the pitch, yes there has been poor recruitment but also some rotten luck with Harrison and Grix finishing way before their time, Crosby and Dodds could all have helped reduce the drop off. Hopefully we have gone some way to minimise thatnin Mulhern and Butler.
B) Control of a game, Gale gave a masterclass in the CC SEMI as to how to manage a game, when Leeds got in the lead there was no way they were going to let that slip, we have not had anybody take control of a game like that for the best part of 8 years. I thought Gidley with his experience might be the leading voice, then Brown but they never appeared to manage a game, its like there are too many chiefs when we just need one person to take control.
Price's comments after Hull FC dumped us out of the play offs stated that Hull FC kicked better. If there is one area we need to concentrate on it is game management, knowing when to play and when not to overplay.

I didn't like it but could accept losing in a big game to Saints, Wigan or Leeds but the last 2 years we have been dumped out of the play offs by Cas and Hull FC. Over the last 5 years we have been beaten in CC semi finals by Hull KR and Salford. Then in Finals to Hull FC and Catalan. I can accept a couple of those as freak results (a bit like the CC win over saints was a freak result the other way) but not all 6. There has been a problem with mental toughness / attitude / motivation. call it what you want but there is no way we should have been knocked out of play offs and challenge cup in all those games with the squad we had. All those games we would have gone into as favourites.
At some point we will be hailing the arrival of a new coach but I hope that whoever that is brings with him a leader on the pitch that can kick, control a game, knows when to turn up the tempo and that all the other players will follow, A bit like Bellamy and Cameron Smith at Melbourne we need a leader on the pitch as much as we need one off it.

DDI you make some excellent points, but it is rarely one thing alone. I mentioned fine margins before and the Hull CC final was a demonstration of that, if the grounds man had watered the pitch a bit more...
The Catalans game was a disgrace we just didn't turn up. A Wigan fan sat by me kept saying we would come back but I knew we had blown it.
By the same token in the Saints match we were lucky with the "no try" but Saints had masses of time to pull it back but for whatever reason couldn't.
Funny old game sport!

PS i actually rate our win against Saints as a bigger upset than Catalans against us!