We simply put our trust in the people who are paid to deliver, i.e. players and coaching staff.

Nothing wrong in being optimistic, Carbon, but not to the extent that we're going to beat Stains because "we're due one"

Are these the coaching staff who in your own words can't see what an eleven year old can?

Although Im very proud of our progress this season (especially with consideration to last year), Saturday did confirm my worst fears.

I openly admitted before this game that we wouldn't beat them. On here aswell. Our defence again at crucial times is nowhere near good enough. Saints didn't have to do a great deal with the ball to gain enough points to win the game, it was their defence that won it. But its the same defensive lapses everytime we play them. I lost count of the amount of times that Saints had played the ball, dummy half runner set off on a run and our defence still had their backs to the play. But I've been saying this for so long now its getting a bit daft.

Thank god Eastmond was in the stands.

I think one thing which let us down on par with our defence was our composure. Theres absolutely no point in doing something brilliant with the ball, to end up dropping it. Or throw it in touch. We seemed nervous almost.

For the foreseeable future I just can't see us beating them. Although they won by a mere 2 points, I still think they are a better side. And I certainly won't say we're making strides on them because I remember a particularly freezing cold night in March 2005 when we [ireally[/i did blow it.

Here's to hoping that Leeds topple them on Saturday if we are to progress ourselves. Otherwise unless there is major improvement in defence, can anyone honestly see us beating them in a final?

As much as I love the Wire, I'm not one of them.

Yes Paul, they'd be the ones. The ones who couldn't see the same move, 3 or 4 times in the same match, which has also been done by the same players for the past few years.
That's why I've said we've got to put our trust in them to get it right, next time we play Stains.

Bradford are a bag of unused cheap condoms this season, end of. Its not the likes of them, Hudds, Wakey or the Humber teams do I feel we need to start beating regularly to finally confirm we are a good team. Its Saints and Leeds.

Fair play to Wigan this year, but I was ten times more confident going to DW than I was hosting Saints at home on Saturday.

Im also not demanding we beat them, but this terrific position we find ourselves in with only a couple of rounds to go will count for very little if we crash and burn early doors. And I do believe that this 'little' mental edge that Leeds and especially Saints seem to have over us [iwill[/i count for something when we play them in a shat or bust game.

Benny is a machine. I just wish I could have encouraged him (over the PA system perhaps) to take the kicking tee back another 8 metres. I knew he was going to miss.

Poor lad!

Yes, I can honestly see us beating them in a final. We are only talking about a small improvement.

That improvement being in relation to a problem we seem to have had for a long time though, unfortunately! I know, hand on heart, we can beat them Mark. Everybody does. But those silly little defensive issues need to be put to bed if we are to do so.

In a Final situation, and if we did play the callibre of Saints, every try they score needs to be a reward for their effort, not the result of our clumsy or lazy defence.

Sorry Mark, but Stains (at times) were way off the pace on Saturday, missing some big names. Nowt to stop them improving, too.

We need to raise our game BIG STYLE to beat a fully fit Stains side. No Eastmond, Gidley and a few others (yes I know Bridge, Higham and Grix were missing) missing. All big game players, who add lots to their game.

I'm still hopeful we CAN rise to their (and Leeds) level

I think it's important to make a clear distinction between people expressing baffled exasperation at our head-to-head record versus St Helens, and moaning at or criticising, the Warrington team this season. The handful of posters on this thread who’ve been accused of negativity have all made it abundantly clear that they feel that this is one of the best seasons in living memory and that the squad, coaching set-up and style of rugby being played is first rate. If you’ve read the posts properly, I think that is clear to all.

I don’t think we have a problem beating the big sides per se. I can always seeing us beating the likes of Wigan - and to a lesser, but still realistic extent - Leeds. However when it comes to Saints, something is badly wrong and it is clearly a mental rather than a physical challenge with the squad. I’m not going to dissect Saturday by saying we should have stopped Wellens busting through the middle time and time again or try and fathom why three passes sailed into touch. I just accept these and the various other gremlins that always creep into our performances against Saints as physical manifestations of our psychological inability to beat them.

It’s a real paradox for me because I know that we will beat Saints one day soon, whether it’s in a final or a regular season match, but it until it actually happens, I won’t believe that it can happen.

I agree that we’re only a fraction away from beating them every time we play them, but it just irks me that since 2007, excluding Wires, Wigan and Leeds, in league and cup, Saints have lost to the following sides (number of times in brackets):

Hull KR (4)
Catalans (4)
Hull (3)
Salford (2)
Wakefield (2)
Huddersfield (2)
Bradford (2)
Castleford (1)
Quins (1)

So going back less than four full seasons, that’s every single side in Super League beating Saints at least once in league or cup, except Wires and Crusaders (who are obviously only in their second season in the top tier). Let’s not forget that in every one of the above seasons, Saints have made the Grand Final, won two Challenge Cups and made the semi in the other two years, so it’s not like they were bobbins one year and there for the taking. God knows what the other team stats would be if I went back to 2001 or 1996, but it just illustrates that something happens to prevent us beating them - more than just bad luck or under-performance.

The reason that everyone else has beaten them is because even a champion side like Saints can’t play well every week. However when they play us, they always raise their game no matter what squad they put out and we either can’t match them or don’t believe we can beat them and that is a massive barrier to becoming a champion side ourselves.

There is a difference between identifying plays and having the players actually stop them. Did it ever cross your mind that those plays are just well executed? They don't just do it to us you know, they are good at it. If players started charging out of the line to stop it then they would just simply pass it round and go through the hole.

That had not occurred to us, Dude.

Thank you for summing up this seemingly complex subject so concisely.

Well now all this new information has come to light, I hope your satisfied.

I dont think there are a big three any more.

This is the most competitive super league i have ever seen, Saints and Leeds have lost some very "easy" games, we have won our "easier" games but foooked it against the "big 3".

We boomed harlequins, they beat wigan. Catalans beat us and saints, then crusaders stuffed them.

A couple of years back, if someone had said "within three years, you can be second in the table, semi of the challenge cup and current challenge cup holders BUT you will be beaten twice by saints, would you take it?" Damn Right I Would.


If someone said to me now "you wont beat saints for the next three years, but you will win the cup and league, would you take it?"

Yes sir i would.

Roll on Catalans on Sunday

Absolutely, I'd take that scenario. I'd take that scenario even if we lost 80-0 to Saints every time we played them within that three year winning period.

OK, so the chances of continually losing 80-0 is preposterous, but no more so that the chances of winning the league and cup double for the next three years without having to face Saints in a single knockout match during that time.

Good god people!!

I really hope they beat Leeds this weekend and we beat them in the final to silence all you doubters!!

Like ive said in a previous post, until the playoffs come round we are not playing knockout rugby! So as long as we give ourselves a decent league position to go into the playoffs and keep our players healthy, who cares at the mo?? When the pressure is really on, and i mean in the CC final (if we face stains) or in the playoffs if we face them also, and we still lose to them.....then you lot can criticise. Until that comes round, as deflating as it is, the loss to Stains really isn't a major problem.

Have faith in the boys, they will do us proud!

All that's fair enough but I would just prefer not to have to find a way to beat St Helens for the first time in years in front of 70,000 people. I'd have liked us to have the confidence that we have already done it.

The loss to Stains isn't a major problem!!!!

Since we moved in to the HJ, we must have played Stains nearly 20 times, and we've yet to beat them. I'd call that a problem. Or would you care to sweep all those games under the carpet.

When your're at home WWRLFC78, do you hide your bills in a drawer, hoping they'll go away?

I've been keeping "having faith in the boys" since the last kicking we took off Stains in 2004. Unfortunately, the boys have yet to deliver.

...and again, I'm not a doubter....just a realist.

I like this thread. It's an updated version of the Cullenistas vs the Pessimistas!

And it will turn out to show the "pessimistas" correct, yet again.



You know I think the pessimistas are due a public apology from the Cullenistas.

You'll be waiting a long time, Judas.

But back on the thread, it's a really interesting one. We have had several coaches and several squads of players and many of those who played on Saturday won the first Challenge Cup since 1974, but still the losses come against St Helens. It took us until 2006 to beat Wigan away in Super League and then we did it two years running and then again this year. Of course, the laws of probability don't apply, but the improvement in our performance does and I'll let that dictate our chances against St Helens, not the view that our players bottled it, or they couldn't see St Helens' tactics, or we are just not good enough.

Typical, slag off those who wanted PC out, then join in with the success that came about from his departure with a proper coach installed. I'm glad you missed the final now as you would not have enjoyed it. It would have rung hollow.

I was delighted as I assume Cullen was.

A little late on the topic but I've been away all week through work and only had chance today to rewatch the match.

I thought Thierry Alibert had miscounted a tackle count on the night but had forgotten all about it.
When I watch a recording I still find myself counting the tackles and the same thing happened today.
I even rewound to the start of the set just to make sure. It's definitely not from a zero tackle as Saints had been awarded a penalty and there's not even a whiff of the tackle count being wiped clear during the set.

It's the set immediately prior to Saints scoring directly from a scrum down the blind side - at approximately 29:30 in the first half.

The Warrington defenders clearly had trouble counting two Saints attackers so I don't suppose you can be too upset at Alibert miscounting to six in a language other than his own.

Apologies if the error has already been mentioned elsewhere on the board.
Oh, and I'm not suggesting it was the difference between winning and losing.