Grix was a bit more than solid and was a much more intelligent player than Batchelor. If the second row was Anderson and Westwood which it should’ve been then Matautia isn’t getting a game either.

From some of these comments I suspect that while that 2011 side was indeed a very good one, I think we can be a bit guilty of having a rose-tinted view of some of the individuals that were in that side.

I forgot Saints are the only team to deal with injuries/bans/adversity in general. Spare me! You'd think you beat us with old creepy Eamon at full back and Johnny Vegas in the forwards.

Maybe that team was greater than the sum of its parts.

Does that 2011 team hold the record for the best points difference at the end of a regular super league season? Think it was something like +690! That team was a bit more than 'very good'.

Think it was F 1072 A 401 over 27 games.

We were 12 league points ahead of Leeds who finished 5th.

And yet, they still didn't win either of the big prizes.

Perhaps a case of flat track bullies - they were the Graeme Hick of RL?...

Maybe but I'd take that season over any of the last 10.

I think I saw somewhere that on a 'points per game' basis we were 3rd behind a Saints team of the mid 2000's and Bradford team of the early 2000's? Something like that, anyway.

What I'd give to see[i any[/i side perform some champagne rugby these days.

Undoubtedly the most talented group of players in SL, orchestrated by a coach at the peak of his powers.

And we still didn't win the GF - and therein lies the problem. It's no good arguing whether Saints 2023 would beat Wire 2011, because Wire 2011 didn't deliver when it counted.

We would have done, had Waterhouse held that pass 5 m out.

...and if my Auntie had balls, she'd be my uncle

The long & the short of it is that we blew it, and until we win it, we're not a "big club"

Not sure this is mutually exclusive anymore

Once again we look at least one if not two props short of a championship.

In all we have 3 areas that concern me.

1… The prop shortage yet again that I mentioned and the quality, looks like we’re going to rely on one man again, Vaughan.

2… Drinkwater. Initially I was thrilled with his signature, but he has been positively look warm drink water.
To put full game playing role into his hands is concerning.

3… Goal kicks. I’m a big Ratchford fan, but he’s not so evergreen, and if he is fitted in like a modern day Boitica, where is he going to play?
If he isn’t going to play, who’s going to kick?

Broad agreement. We're at least one, quality, prop short. Even if Burgess can get the best out of Dudson and Bullock, neither have been more than squad fillers throughout their careers.

Drinkwater has started well, then dissappeared, at every club that he has played for.

I don't want to see Ratchford 'fitted in' for his goal kicking. He's at the back end of his career and he'll add depth to the squad due to his versatility - but he shouldn't be starting this year.

1. Somewhat agree, I think we are in a better space than we were previously with Musgrove, but the rotation props need to be at their best, with big Sam K calling it a day, I hoped we would have been able to get Mikaele back.

2. Drinkwater it's his last chance, and I hope he comes good, but if not we have Hayes and even Powell at a pinch who can go there.

3. Ratch shouldn't start Thewlis, Hayes and a number if others can kick, maybe not as well but we'll enough that we don't need Ratch in the Team.

In terms of props I guess we have at the moment Vaughan, Musgrove, Harrison & Philbin, with Nicholson & Crowther sharing 13 duties. We then have Bullock, Green & Dudson. Much will depend on Musgrove I think as to whether that set of props is good enough. We also have the likelihood of another prop coming in at some point with Kasiano's quota spot and salary cap free. That could well mean Mikaele comes back (again) or another player out of left field - Tom Burgess if he isn't getting the game time at Souths in his final year?

Drinkwater, agreed hasn't proved up to the task so far, hopefully Hayes gets some time to shine at 7 next year - that could also solve a goal kicking issue?

Ratchford shouldn't be in the team for his goalkicking alone, he needs to prove he is in the top two centres in the squad. If he isn't in then as others have mentioned, Drinkwater, Hayes and Thewlis have all kicked in the past.

Centre we have the depth but I'm not sure we have the quality, one of Tai & Wrench will need to step forward to partner King.

Back Row, do we have enough depth after Currie & Fitzgibbon? I assume they will move Nicholson there if we get an injury, but its not ideal if he is trying to establish himself as a 13. After that it s Holroyd, Whitehead and Tupea.

Hooker obviously well stocked numbers wise, I think we would have more balance with Dwyer moving on and the cap space used elsewhere - but that's been done to death.

Agree with Alfie, if we can turn Musgrove into the player he threatened to be then he would be a great addition. With Harrison and Philbin to interchange for the starters, we could have a dependable middle. Crowther has to start for me though, will do a lot of the dirty stuff.

Centre remains the obvious frailty. King has one spot, the other is a best of the rest.

Drinkwater could benefit from this new system designed to free up Williams and Dufty. He can just focus on steering the team and finding a decent kick.

I think above all this is how well Sam gets the guys playing AS A TEAM.

On paper last year I thought we had a great team but for many reasons it didn't work out but fundamentally after a great start the wheels fell off and we looked anything but a team.

Is Vaughan still suspended for the first 2 league games or do any of the friendlies count?

When you look at last year we regularly had 2 members of the pack out through injury and suspension. So if you look at those averages then Dudson and or Bullock will be playing a lot of games.

So as it stands if we have more than 2 out through injury then Green, Thomas, Wood, Holroyd etc are the next up.
I will be disappointed if we end up in a situation where Ratchford or Powell are brought in to play 13 ahead of giving some of the younger fellas a shot.
But we need to be aiming for a situation where those younger players are challenging Dudson and Bullock for selection.

We see other successful clubs do it. There were plenty of times when Wigan had Brad Singleton sat in the stands Even though he would have a couple of hundred first grade games under his belt it didn't result in him being an automatic pick. He was being challenged by the younger lads. I just hope that those younger players can push for a spot in the 17 on merit rather than as a last option.

Last year it is pretty obvious that the young lads ... Green, Thomas & Whitehead in particular were not thought to be up to scratch to play many Superleague minutes. When they did they struggled to get into the game.

I get that Smiffy but it might have been better to give some of those fellas more exposure. Dudson by his own admission was not ripping up trees. Neither was Kassiano. And both of them were not doing big minutes. Yes they had experience but Kassiano was making a lot of errors with things like incorrect play the balls.
I just think we missed an opportunity last year to give some of those fellas some game time and more experience.

I get that the coaches know those lads capabilities better than I do and maybe they were not ready but knowing what we now know from Dudson s recent interview maybe we should have given it a try. As we approached the last few weeks of the season we knew that we were not going to win the GF and we were not going to be relegated so it was a free hit.
I also suspect that the coaching staff knew that Kassiano would not be in the plans for 2024 (wrist injury or not) and we could have been setting up to be without him.

I just think we are not great at planning for the future sometimes.

Wigan, Leeds & Saints are often named as sides that put youngsters into teams ... but the question is would those particular lads have been given a game in those sides. I doubt it really. I understand the repetitive cry to play 'em but the coaching staff see them every day & player development is their top priority ... that's why people coach.

Wigan, Leeds and Saints usually have lots of good young players knocking on the door so a lot of other young players never get a look in. A lot of our Academy players who played 50 or so first team starts in the first team would never have had that in Wigan, Leeds or Saints, they would have been moved on to another club (like Warrington).

Same old, same old.
We’ve another season of underweight and shallow depth.