Surely such a debacle to our season would spark enough indignation to fuel a winter of discontent on the forum.
For many fans the idea is unthinkable & is giving me an attack of the vapours as i write ,but for a so called progressive business & "forward thinking" club with tickets to sell & sponsors to please such a lowly finish,for whatever reason,just isn't good enough.
Pass my spray,please !

Has anyone else noticed that our best rugby has played when Poaching was Tony's No.2? When Poaching was at KR that's when their best Rugby was being played (Obviously barring last season). Now he's at Salford and they're playing their best rugby.

Coincidence? Or is Agar in fact dragging the club down? I wouldn't like to think that Tony Smith would idly sit by whilst Agar coached the team in a sub-standard manner. but could it be the assistant has more input than we would like to think?

Discuss.

I would hope the club reviews all a aspects of its business to establish how it can improve. The playing side should include all aspects of coaching, fitness and conditioning, all of which could be improved. We are not playing the good attractive rugby which excites the crowds, and the fitness and especially the conditioning this season is a worry - look at how many hamstring injuries we have had so far.
Another area is player recruitment, other teams seem to pick up good quality players at reasonable cost whereas we have been burned by high cost especially oversees players who have either not contributed or have not been fit enough.
Junior recruitment is an area where we seem to punch below our weight. It has improved recently with a number of good local boys coming through but clubs like Wigan, Saints, Leeds have a more successful system.
I think we have a lot right, the facilities and player welfare are improved,
Coming back to coaching, top teams do refresh on a regular basis. Even though Ferguson was at United for many years he cycled a number of top class coaches working under him bringing in fresh and new ideas. So perhaps Agar and Smith need changing, however, if it was me it wouldn't be both at the same time. Get a new team under Smith, improve the coaching, fitness and conditioning team, player recruitment and junior development.

Aren't you putting Smith on a pedestal there ? He has recruited all these substandard assistants who are not doing the biz with the players.

Agar is the main coach on training...following the huge barrage of unhappy fans in 2015, TS took the heat of Agar by dumping the suit for T'shirts and a tracky.
TS still handles the team the same, just that we now see TS wearing training kits and sipping water to look hands on.

You mention we get a lot right, I'm interested in how we would score us out of 10 in these areas :

1) Results
2) Playing style.
3) Resilience and winning attitude.
4) Effectiveness of recruitment
5) Development of young players
6) Squad balance and succession planning.
7) Fitness


Injury rehabilitation
9) Training facilities
10) Player welfare / HR
11) Rugby Management Structure

You don't give a time frame for my view to your exam questions. At the moment I would say 6 out of 10 overall in my uninformed position. Give me a week of full access to the club and I would give you a different answer possibly.
All good companies review their performance and no doubt Warrington do too. We tend to get decent marks from RL reviews but there will be areas we can improve.
For me key areas requiring strengthening are coaching, all aspects of Under 19's and Reserves, recruitment.

Perhaps you could give us your markings out of 10 for your own questions?

OK fair enough. From a purely outsider point of view

1) Results - 3.3/10 to reflect our P12 W4.

2) Playing style - 4/10 - some nice flashes in the last 2 games but we are dull in the main. We have one 5th tackle option which is a kick to the corner. A throwback to the Briers/King/Monaghan days. We top the error charts across the entire league which may indicate we are playing fast exciting rugby like Cas, but when you see we have the 3rd lowest tries scored it paints a dismal picture.

3) Resilience and winning attitude - 5/10 we did show spirit against Widnes, Hudds and Wakefield to not "lose". Not sure this translates into a winning culture of excellence. Confidence appears brittle.

4) Effectiveness of recruitment - 2/10. Squad appears low on quality in key areas. I dispute this "high quality squad on paper" argument. Too many are just bang average. Sims, Cooper, Hughes, Evans, Dyer, G King and the like. Halfback pairing perfunctory at best. Would question value for money on certain signings which have gobbled up the cap. Heavily dependent on certain players who when they are missing from the side it shows (Ratchford, Clarke, Hill).

5) Development of young players - 5/10. Some positives with Currie, Patton and Philbin, maybe Livett but nowhere near Wigan and Leeds who would score a 10.

6) Squad balance and succession planning 5/10 - Never recovered from the mass exodus of Briers, Morley, Carvel, Hodgson, Monaghan for me. No enforcer and I don't think Hill is the motivational and inspiring style of captain we need (compare to Sinfield/O'Loughlin). No out and out pace across the side.

7) Fitness 9/10 - I don't think we have looked like we are blowing any more than any other team.



Injury rehabilitation - 4/10 - Bit of a worry. We have had 2 players (King and Westerman) who were out injured, returned and are out again with same injury (King - Hamstring, Westerman - Neck). King is 10 weeks out from an injury in training.

9) Training facilities - 10/10 - No excuses here from what we are told. Warm weather training and trips to Australia every 2 years.

10) Player welfare / HR - ? / 10. Don't know. We seem to be sympathetic and understanding of players in times of need and allow players to prepare for a time after RL (Hill and plumbing business etc). But there do seem to be "favourites".

11) Rugby Management Structure - 7/10 In experience with Briers, and I cannot overlook the coincidence of Agar and our rank playing style. But Smith is seasoned and one of 3 coaches in SL who has won a SL GF as coach and was coach during our best spell in a generation 2010-12.

Would agree, semi agree with most of that analysis.
So how do we improve on the poor areas starting with those that would have the biggest effect soonest?
2 and 3 will look after 1 so unless we have super coach already lined up to slot in right now we need the present coaches with the team to do what has been achieved in the past. Meanwhile develop the other areas which need improving. A lot of players off contract at the end of the season, the succession plan with the slightly inflated salary cap and Marquee Player allowance could be used. Young player development is a mystery to me, we seem to be behind a number of other clubs, don't understand why, that's why I suggested a review. Are we too choosy, offer poor contracts, got a bad name, just don't know. We need tomorrow's future stars queueing up for us. How do we do that?

I think you'll be ok for top 8, the news on Johnstone's injury is a big blow for Wakey, and I now expect them to join Huddersfield, Widnes and Leigh in the middle 8.

Without stating the obvious the next set of games will be crucial. They look tough to me.

Saints (Home)
Wigan (Magic)
Leeds (Away)
Salford (Home)

This is spot on. In fact Agar is in full control of the coaching of the team. According to a team member, TS spends all the time on the training area with his mobile phone stuck to his ear (Quote).

Also it is a fact that the team are under strict instructions "to drive for the posts". This makes us the most predictable team to play against in the league.

I would love for us to part company with Agar, as this is the worst rugby I have witnessed from us in years, and yes I too would love to see Willie Poching back. It may not solve the problems right away, but we have to start playing more attractive rugby soon.

Smith doesn't get involved directly with coaching the players anymore... to be fair, he didn't used to do much back when we were a decent side.. He left that to Poaching, who worked with the senior players on the style of rugby. I believe Michael Monaghan was one of, if not THE driving force behind the way that side played and the attack structure... These days Smith 'monitors' the training sessions, which are 100% run by Agar.

In that case, why have Catalans been so god awful to watch and in freefall since he arrived?

Because they haven't been playing him.

Hilarious. The insinuation was that Monaghan was fulfilling a coaching role and TS input was negligible.

they have done everything but... he does great water

yea that was it.

Presumably Monaghan only started this coaching role after TS came in because we weren't doing much when Cullen and Lowes were here.

Or maybe it was because he was being played at halfback and he couldn't coach from there but once we moved him to hooker he was able to take over the coaching?

I must assume that the people stating they know what goes on with coaching staff must be directly involved in some way? otherwise sounds like a load of nonsense.

Or if you can see the training pitch from your upstairs window you can just watch.

FWIW I genuinely don't find it coincidence that our boring, predictable, passionless style of play went hand in hand with the arrival or Agar. We finished top of the tree in one of the poorest seasons of super league I have ever seen but also that that went in hand with the arrival of Sandow and his off the cuff playing style. Word had it he'd be told to stick to the plan but he'd just do his own thing anyway as soon as he got on the pitch. We don't have that in the team anymore.

If Wire are happy with TS taking a backseat role whilst his assistants run the show then fine. But at least part company with the 2nd in command and bring in some fresh ideas.

I don't mind loosing. Its part of the game there always has to be a loser. It's just the manner we're losing in. Boring, predictable, un-enthusiastic rugby. At least in the mid 2000's when we were awful we could still score points. We can't even do that now.

Today will be:

- Kick off.
- Patton/Livett/Gidley catches.
- Feeds a prop to take the first hit. 1st tackle.
- Russell Scoot. 2nd tackle.
- Evans Scoot. 3rd tackle.
- Patton first receiver with a short ball to a forward. 4th tackle.
- Stupidly overzealous 30 yard pass from right to left.
- Get caught with the ball. 5th tackle.
- Patton/Livett puts up a bomb to the corner.

Repeat throughout, never playing what's in front of us and throw in some knock ons, passes into touch and getting caught with the ball on the 5th.

In the final interview Tony will tell us we did lots of good things but for some reason nothing seemed to stick.

You heard it here first.

You forgot the charge down, they get 6 more tackles and score a try on 2nd tackle, cant believe you missed that lol.

Yep just as I thought watching out your bedroom window. Must give you a fantastic insight into the week at training.

Whatever we think of the team's current malaise, the style of play and who is responsible, let's not decry TS achievements of yesteryear.

Michael Monaghan was a slightly above average scrum-half, playing like a slightly below average one.
Lee Briers was a hugely talented player with several years of inconsistency behind him

Neither was a coaching genius, and neither, in terms of coaching, was responsible for the upturn in the clubs fortune. Tony Smith was. He took those two in particular and gave them a framework to express their ability in their natural positions. He also made Briers, and the club as a whole, vastly more professional and that was key in our upturn.

To suggest that TS turned up, went for a brew, read the papers and let Monaghan, Briers and Poching get on with it themselves is at best stretching plausibility, and also very disrespectful.

I'm afraid you're wasting your time. There has been a re writing of history of Stalinist proportions. Something that initially is mentioned as conjecture eg Smith does no coaching or Monaghan coached the team is then adopted as a fact. That "fact" is then used to develop a theory in an ever downward spiral. Any suggestion that it may not be all Smith's fault is met with the answer that you deliberately close your eyes to what is going on in the club "Happy Clapper" style.
If you try to point out an occasional positive in these worrisome times there is no hope for you...