But not enough to churlishly refer me to Matt King and Adrian Morley though!

Truth is im indifferent to the Pope's visit to the UK. I could'nt care less about it when there are more pressing concerns closer to home.

Yeah I thought I'd answer the question posed by referring you to a couple of high profile church attenders from our squad rather than rise to the bait of the reference to a film. Saw it as an opportunity to continue the debate along fairly interesting lines rather than degenerate it into a quote-fest from Python...

Fair enough i suppose.

To be fair to Islam, all the radicals who follow islam are following a screwed definition of the qur'an. The islamic faith neither welcomes nor encourages so called "holy war" that people associate with Islam. Also there is no evidence of peadophilia in mosques by Iman's, or mosques built on stolen =#FF0000jewish gold which is well documented within the catholic church. The problem i have and im sure the popular media is the same is the two faced morals of a pope that promotes family virtue's on one hand, whilst forgiving peado priest's on the other. Im by no means sympathetic to islam anymore than to my own =#FF0000catholic faith. I rather find it strange when people can convieniently forget all the churches sin's when an ex nazi (also documented.) visits Britain. Oh yes and Peter Tatchell is an odious t**t.

The Pope is NOT an ex Nazi - what is well documented is he was a member of the Hitler Youth, which had you or I been around in Nazi Germany at the time we would have no choice but to join.

Yes there have been incidents of paedophilia, abuse and other crimes committed by Catholic Priests and cruelty levelled against Catholic Nuns & Brothers. There have also been such accusations levelled against non-Catholic Christian denominations around the world. It is not a problem exclusively Catholic, despite the hysteria of the populist press and NIMBYs nationwide. Do such crimes against humanity carried out in the misguided name of the Church balance the crimes against humanity carried out in the misguided name of Islam? I don't know but stereotypes stick unfortunately, so just as narrow minded people can't see a Catholic Priest without thinking "Child Abuser", they can't see a Muslim without thinking "Terrorist". "Not In My Name" was a badge worn by Muslims criticising the 9/11 attacks - well "Not In My Name" were child abusers allowed to remain in my church...

People expect the Catholic Church, or indeed any religion, to change overnight. Modern approaches and attitudes to say contraception to name one are modern - they have been around less than half a century - The Abortion Act legalising abortion only came into law in 1967 in this country. In terms of an organisation stretching to 2,000 years old that is relatively last night. And the Pope is 83 - try talking to 80+ year old relatives and see how their opinions differ from yours on issues such as abortion... It takes a long long time for the Church to change because of the relative ages of those concerned leading it - they are all from a generation or two before ours and will take another generation or two for their ideas to reach 2010. Not in itself a bad thing, in many ways stability and slow change has allowed the world's major religions to continue for as long as they have...

The Church preaches forgiveness - do you strike a limit on who can be forgiven or not? What is the sliding scale? I've not been affected by child abuse so cannot speak on that issue, but can forgiveness be denied someone who is truly sorry for what they have done? Well right or wrong that is what the Church preaches and has done for 2,000 years....

first of all magic piano, that was an excellant post.

Now i have never been affected by child abuse or suffered under a regime as brutal as say the magdelene asylum. I understand everything your saying and agree, though partly with the fact the church cannot change it's views overnight. I still think the church could have done alot more for those unfortunate victims of abuse and if i was a victim i would find forgiveness hard to come by.

As for pope benedict and hitler youth, he was also an infantry soldier.

Thanks for complement - enjoying this thread!

It's interesting that technically the last 2 Popes were on opposite sides in WW11. I guess with the atrocities carried out by the Nazis on Hitler's orders against his people John Paul 11 could teach many a few things about forgiving those who have harmed you and your people.

I agree that the hiding of those committing terrible crimes is wrong. I don't for a minute agree with all of the Catholic Church's teachings but class myself as an occassional church-goer with more questions than answers!

and not a monty python quote in site

There is also a very real chance of the next Pope being British - Cardinal Vincent Nichols (once from Liverpool) is head of the Catholic Church in England and Wales, and is a very real candidate...

I think that the way religion opposes science and the fact that religion always tries to hypocritically preach moral standards that you will always find you have more questions than answers my friend.

child abuse has been around since the year dot. To simply point at it being a Catholic problem is totally absurd. You will find more child abuse over the years coming from the likes of the scouts, nursing and orphanages. even read up on winwick hospital and it's on our doorstep.

A few more cases of child abuse from recent times that were conveniently ignored until recently, include the abuse of children from this country that were sent to Australia, and the 1 in Belgium a few years back, where the young girl was found in a cellar in Brussels. The latter eventually led to a smashing of a paedo network in Belgium, which alledgedly went upto ministers and the royal family.

Incidently, what we in the civilised world would class as immoral and against the law, goes on frequently in the Muslim world. girls as young as 10 being forced into marriage and in places like the Sudan, female circumcision is still very common, often carried out by a male relative.

Even the prophet Mohammed " lay next to his bride"- 9years of age... So you see it is not just a catholic problem, it's a world-wide 1.

All the above confirms my current position when it comes to a faith - I dont have one, nor will I.
Its devisive, secular and creates only problems, divisions and bigotry. Half if not more of all human conflicts have been based on religion, from the Crusades, before and after.
Having spent time in Northern Ireland during 'the troubles', need I say any more.
I have been lucky that I have known many people from many religions, who I take on face value, as human beings. I find it fascinating to learn about their cultures and their beliefs, but have to be honest and say it has only ever been the common British faiths of Catholicism and the Cof E that have ever tried to tell me 'theirs is best'.

I am very happy and comfortable NOT having any religion, and long will it stay that way.

[iI'm Brian.. and so's my wife.[/i

Good to see a generally intelligent thread! Despite being a Catholic who attends church I do find myself in agreement with people who choose to opt out of "religion." There are so many protestants who define themselves by opposing Catholics and Catholics who define themselves by being against what the other lot say.....Its easier to stand against something than to stand for it but it leads to a divisive angry world. I'm not a pope fan...I generally do not like authority but Benedict has surprised me by being much more human than I expected. Child abuse is a very very difficult issue. It was rife across all sorts of organisations as mentioned previously and the wisdom until recently was if it was minor, ignore it, if it was major, people could be treated and moved to other positions. It happened in childrens homes, churches, schools...everywhere adults had unsupervised access to children but bizarrely (and often forgotten) the vast majority of child abusers are family members or friends. My view is the church erred on the side of forgiveness for too long and has only woken up to the issue in the last ten to twenty years. I do suspect that practically everyone has now seen through Peter Tatchell (how does he make a living) Anyone else find it strange that Peter Tatchell criticises the church for child abuse but wants the age of consent to be 14 for homosexual activity between adults and children (www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%2 ... t%2014.htm) and said 'not all sex involving children is unwanted and abusive'. and "'Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful" (hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/ ... h-cri.html) I assume he has reported his paedophile friends to the police....oops...he hasn't...

Good to see a generally intelligent thread! Despite being a Catholic who attends church I do find myself in agreement with people who choose to opt out of "religion." There are so many protestants who define themselves by opposing Catholics and Catholics who define themselves by being against what the other lot say.....Its easier to stand against something than to stand for it but it leads to a divisive angry world. I'm not a pope fan...I generally do not like authority but Benedict has surprised me by being much more human than I expected. Child abuse is a very very difficult issue. It was rife across all sorts of organisations as mentioned previously and the wisdom until recently was if it was minor, ignore it, if it was major, people could be treated and moved to other positions. It happened in childrens homes, churches, schools...everywhere adults had unsupervised access to children but bizarrely (and often forgotten) the vast majority of child abusers are family members or friends. My view is the church erred on the side of forgiveness for too long and has only woken up to the issue in the last ten to twenty years. I do suspect that practically everyone has now seen through Peter Tatchell (how does he make a living) Anyone else find it strange that Peter Tatchell criticises the church for child abuse but wants the age of consent to be 14 for homosexual activity between adults and children (www.petertatchell.net/age%20of%2 ... t%2014.htm) and said 'not all sex involving children is unwanted and abusive'. and "'Several of my friends - gay and straight, male and female - had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful" (hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/ ... h-cri.html) I assume he has reported his paedophile friends to the police....oops...he hasn't...

in order to become a member of the hitler youth/jugend you had to swear an oath of aligence to the nazi party and hitler, that makes him an ex nazi!

gott mit uns and all that!

Once the Nazis were in power it was compulsory for boys to join the Hitler Youth.

Most (if not all) other youth groups were banned under Hitler's govenment. So pop goes another media myth!

irrespective of the fact it was compulsary or not, he swore that oath, some might say great men have refused such things and become Martyrs in history, but that's not for me to judge! did he cross his fingers behind his back? i don't know. did he get swept up in the national socialist fever that hit germany at the time? you don't know!
either way he was a nazi!

media myth, who mentioned that? i lived in germany for over 12 years on and off and spoke to many men who were arround at the time so don't assume i believe anything written in the british press i'm not that stupid!

Just thought I'd throw this in...

"Today Christians ... stand at the head of [this country... I pledge that I never will tie myself to parties who want to destroy Christianity .. We want to fill our culture again with the Christian spirit ... We want to burn out all the recent immoral developments in literature, in the theater, and in the press - in short, we want to burn out the *poison of immorality* which has entered into our whole life and culture as a result of *liberal excess* during the past ... (few) years."

[The Speeches of Adolph Hitler, 1922-1939, Vol. 1 (London, Oxford University Press, 1942), pg. 871-872

Sound familiar?

I never said that child abuse was solely a catholic problem. The problem i have regarding this whole distasteful issue is that the higher echelons of the church knew exactly what was happening and decided to close there eyes and ears to it all.

Phil Clarke on his support for Wigan.

Are the Catholic church still against condoms and queers?

Religion is archaic, their persistence with things like the 10 commandments is embarrassing.

And Hitler and his national socialist party when in power were imprisoning and killing Christians of all denominations (and other religious groups) who opposed them while setting up their own national religion obedient only to the fuhrer..

Maybe it just proves that megalomaniac xenophobic evil genocidal mass murderers don't always tell the truth.