After today's shambles of missed forward passes, ignoring of knock-ons and other odd decisions, and having listened to some of the complaints on Radio Manchester I'm sure there will be many calling for Mr Bentham's head (accompanied by his touch judges) -

So I thought it might be interesting to show the actual laws of the game relating to what the ref & touch judges can or can't do.

The reality is that despite the calls from the terrace to "wave that bl....dy flag" the poor touch judge is forbidden to do that except for very specific items -

Here are the rules:

SECTION 16

DUTIES OF REFEREE AND TOUCH JUDGES

One Referee 1. In all matches a Referee and two Touch Judges shall Two Touch Judges be appointed or mutually agreed upon by the contesting teams.

Enforce Laws 2. The Referees shall enforce the Laws of the Game and may impose penalties for any deliberate breach of the Laws. He shall be the [usole judge[/u on matters of fact except those relating to touch and touch in-goal

Consult Touch Judge. Before giving a decision, it is permissible for the Referee to
consult either or both Touch Judges.

Touch Judge signals. The Touch Judge cannot stop the play for any infringement but he may signal the nature of an infringement if the Referee is unsighted and seeks his guidance.

Signals which may be used by a Touch Judge are:–

Touch. Flag is raised about the head at the point of entry into touch.

Ball Back. Flag waved above head accentuating backward movement.

Touch in-Goal. Flag waved across the body, below the waist, and, with the other hand, point to either the goal line or 20 metre line depending on where play should be restarted. Do not point to the player who made the ball dead.

Successful Kick at Goal. Raise flag above head.

Unsuccessful Kick at Goal. Wave flag across and in front of the body below the waist. If the ball goes over the dead ball line, tap the ground with the end of the flag stick.

Dead Ball Line. Wave flag up and down between shoulder and knee and then point to appropriate restart position.

So there you have it - unless the referee actually asks the touch judge for help the only thing they do is flag "ball in touch" or to indicate foul play if the referee hasn't seen it.

IMHO this is rubbish and the Rubgy League should look at using touch judges to indicate forward passes and offside to assist the referee - It might just improve things, and surely couldn't make it worse than we saw this afternoon.

Do you want a bigger dummy?

Amazing - I try and put a reasoned discussion together and the Yorkshire contingent take it as bad sportsmanship - sorry guys - Did I say Leeds weren't the stronger side overall? Did I say the ref gave them the game? NO!!

But look at the last pass before Leeds last try - it was so far forward that everyone in the ground must have seen it, bar the Ref because of where he was positioned - what I'm arguing for is to allow the other officials to be able to indicate more than they can at the moment

But perhaps intelligent discussion is beyond those on the dark side?

Are you going to blame the ref for Ali passing the ball to Hall for a try when your teams defending and not wrapping him up was the error?

No of course I'm not - did I say I was ?

I'm arguing for a better way to apply the laws of the game

Do you honestly think your last try should have been given?

To be honest, I believe the standards of officials is driving alot of people away from rugby, its just consistently shocking reffing.

I agree. Arent they called referees assistants?

So why can't they assist the referee?

No, the referee made a mistake, as did about seven Salford players afterwards who failed to execute a tackle.

Get over it.

One of them tried today. He came on to report a foul on a Leeds player. The ref ignored him and waved him off. I assume the Salford fans aren't complaining about that incident?

Are you going to blame the ref for Ali passing the ball to Hall for a try when your teams defending and not wrapping him up was the error?
Actually, that's bad defense, the forward pass was the error, why do you try to hide all the bad decisions made from the ref? Just admit he was awful and ruined was could of been a good game, he made bad decisions for both sides and just had no clue and ignored the rules, I mean what did he get the TJ on the pitch for to have a talk with him and then just play on, if something happened bad enough for the TJ to get involved surely it must of been a penalty offense?

He wasn't in my view, you were and are looking for penaltys to cover the cracks of your loss

How am i? All Ive been saying is we didn't deserve to win from the fact we couldn't put more points on the board in the first half and our defense in the second half, I'm just saying the Ref was awful and didn't go by the rules and ruined what could of been a good game, how can you say he wasn't awful?

nice contradiction there

And I'm saying the rules are wrong in respect of what the touch judges are allowed to do.

We all want to see good open flowing rugby - no-one will object to being beaten by a better side - but when you watch blatant refereeing errors THAT COULD EASILY BE AVOIDED - you have to question the way the game is run

Nowhere on here have I criticised Leeds - I notice that Lawrie L hasn't answered the question - should their last try have been awarded if the rules were administered fairly?

given I was stood slap bang right behind the sticks I couldn't tell you if it was forward, as either could someone stood on the halfway line

I was bang alongside, as was the touch judge, and the pass crossed the white line - going forwards!!

That's my point - the ref was unable to see it - the TJ could - when can't the TJ assist?

Two issues

Eraof the Biff "Arent they called referees assistants"

no: wrong game : that's wendyball.

Lawrie L "given I was stood slap bang right behind the sticks I couldn't tell you if it was forward, as either could someone stood on the halfway line"

absolute rubbish:
the ball crossed a painted on line WHICH is visible from where you stood i.e if a passed ball goes from behind the 20 metre line and is caught in front of the 20 metre line, it goes forward.
The movement of a ball across a white line in a forward direction is easily observable from the slightly higher position you were in unless you have become politically blind.

Sorry but you have not read the post, nor thought, nor argued well.
I can call you many names but you would insult any of them.

For the record, the better team over the 80 won, and I have got over it.

Which way were the passer of the balls hands pointing as the ball left his hands?

clearly you havent got over it, and call me a name

Im stood behind the posts, I cant see momentum, Im stood facing it so cant see the balls movement

dont let that get in the way of you getting over the game

You know that by the letter of the law that doesn't necessarily make it a forward pass don't you?

super league show may be interesting

At the end of the days leeds were better, if you can't find touch with a pen do you deserve to win a super league game???

And most referees wont ask as its probably seen as a weakness and marked down by the referee director of performance @ the game.
Dont forget the referees have to achieve certain levels of performance to continue to ref @ the top level and keep their full time job as a referee if they are seen to be passing the book to a part time linesmen to make a call the powers that be will this and a question mark over their ability and may stop them achieving their dream of refereeing finals and internationals.

So rather than encouraged to use all the support around him to make the correct decition he'll just make a gut decition on what he saw right or wrong when its not on TV in 12 hours time nobody remembers the incident the result still stands and you move on to the next game.

As for spotting forward passes from behind the goals you look for two thing

1) Where the attackers feet are when the ball leaves the passers hands and how many steps has to take to recieve it can be made easier with pitch markings

2) The position of the throwers and catchers hands in relation to his body and away they are from their body the more forwad the pass
There is another more complicated way by looking at the positioning of the back of recievers hands but without examples its a bit card to explain.

Leeds are a champion team and shouldnt need any favours when putting salford to bed, in a way the top teams are the top teams for one reason they can do stuff quicker than the other teams if that includes the odd forward pass then more power to their elbow you earn the right to that type of luck thats why they are near the top

Ok here's my two penneth worth. Firstly, regardless of the result Leeds were the better team and deserved to win today. They were bigger, stronger, faster and more skillful than us which 9 times out of 10 means you're going to win. However, that doesn't detract from the total ineptness of every one of the officials on show today. Missed forward passes, knock-ons, lying on etc are unacceptable when you have [u3[/u officials involved in a game. ATEOTD the TJ's should be there to assist the ref which should mean giving them greater powers. The TJ's are in the best position to judge on things like forward passes so let them f*cking do it!!!

I'm an Admin Manager and it's like saying to me, "well Slim you're great at dealing with Finance and Performance but we only really want you to deal with the post"!!!

The 2nd half Sinfield "conversion" from the far touchline (AT stand side) summed it up for me. One TJ gave it, the other one had a cheeky look over his shoulder, saw his mate had given it and then stuck his own flag up as he blatantly didn't have a clue

.

The bad decisions shouldn't detract from the fact Leeds were the better team but the last thing you want to be doing is walking out iof a ground seething by yet more shoddy officiating