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| Should Bradford go into admistration, what would people's thoughts be on it being bought out by a pool of fans.
I remember reading some time ago about a group of fans puchasing Ebbsfleet United. I have looked into this and they are now in their 5th year of ownership of the club.
You can view on myfootballclub.com how the system works.
In brief, the members own the club and pay a membership fee which helps fund the club (currently £4.99 per month). Its members vote for a Board to run the club each year, any member can put himself/herself up for election.
The board then proceed with the general day to day running of the club.
All members then get to vote on things such as coaching appointments, playing roster, kit design and supply, ticket pricing so on and so forth.
I think a name as huge a Bradford Bulls would be an amazing club for RL fans to do this with and would be a great way for fans to get involved with RL.
Thoughts?
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| I think this would work better if they did it for the RFL.
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| The Supporters Trust (Bullbuilder?) would have been the vehicle to achieve this; they appear to have opted instead to support the existing BoD's begging bowl strategy, in an attempt to stave off administration and allow the incumbents to execute their otherwise excellent business plan 'going forward.'
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| Without wishing to be patronising to Ebbsfleet - what's their turnover and how many full-time employees do they have?
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| Quote ="bren2k"The Supporters Trust (Bullbuilder?) would have been the vehicle to achieve this; they appear to have opted instead to support the existing BoD's begging bowl strategy, in an attempt to stave off administration and allow the incumbents to execute their otherwise excellent business plan 'going forward.''"
Lets cut the ill-informed sarcasm, eh? It's beneath you, and extremely disappointing. I would have thought much better of you.
Read the BullBuilder statement.
There was no way we could do anything in the time frame. In fact, we would almost certainly have made it much worse, in the ridiculously-tight time frame available - split the rescue effort and sown confusion. There are no shares available for purchase anyway, so what precisely would you have had us do? And we judged that the existence of a block of shares owned by supporters would be an impediment to anyone looking to take over the club anyway. As things stand.
If the worst happens, then we have a ready-made vehicle that COULD be used. And at short order if required, and provided a lot more pairs of hands volunteered. Anyone thinking of starting from scratch - it would take you months to get a vehicle set up. But until and unless the situation changes, such there IS something the supporters can do, our conclusion after a hell of a lot of consideration was that we could see no available alternative that we could pursue in the time available.
But don't anyone be under any illusions regarding just what a massive undertaking it would be, for anyone, if the opportunity DID present itself. And just how much compliance is involved. You'd need a team of full-time people on the case for a protracted period.
Frankly, I am getting pretty sick and tired of being lectured by some Wakey supporters, whose club was saved by a wealthy benefactor in a scenario rather different to and simpler than ours in many respects. And, in particular, about what a Supporters' Trust "should do" when they were never in the position of having to actually do it themselves.
Posted in a personal capacity only.
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| You're getting too touchy Adey; it wasn't sarcasm or a lecture - just calling it as I see it.
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| What part of "...otherwise excellent business plan 'going forward.' " wasn't sarcastic?
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| All of it apart from the 'going forward' bit - whenever someone uses that expression, I automatically assume they're lying.
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| Quote ="Finsbury Wire"All members then get to vote on things such as coaching appointments, playing roster, kit design and supply, ticket pricing so on and so forth.
Thoughts?'"
Can't run a business by (huge) committee, though. Even John lewis does not attempt it.
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| Quote ="Adeybull"Can't run a business by (huge) committee, though. Even John lewis does not attempt it.'"
What about the 170,000 members at Barcelona then?
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| Quote ="Lord Bruce Burton"What about the 170,000 members at Barcelona then?
'"
Could be wrong here but becouse barcalona and real Madrid, to the same extent, are owned by the fans the spanish government subsidise them! they defo do with real Madrid, hence why they can still operate when they are very heavily in debt!
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| Quote ="Lord Bruce Burton"What about the 170,000 members at Barcelona then?
'"
They wisely distinguish between ownership and management. As does any successful employee- owned or supporter- owned business.
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| Ady,
I'd be interested to know which Trinity fans you're particularly sick of and what advice they've had that you find so I'll informed?
From the outside looking at the two situations they are eerily simular,
Neither club owning its ground
The call to raise £500K (then another £500K in Bulls case)
A huge TAX bill being the catalyst
I'm not privy to the finer details of Bradfords business plan but a statement from the BoD telling everyone that "we'll be OK after we get the £Million" sounds a bit hollow so I hope you'll forgive the scepticism.
IMO the Trust could, and maybe you already have, set itself up as a credible option to buy the Bradford Bulls from the Administrator should the Bulls end up there. You might "get lucky" and someone could come in and do it for you but it won't hurt to be prepared.
From a Wakefield fans perspective I think the target of £500,000 + £500,000 is a virtual impossibility without massive donations from individuals or sponsors. That in itself comes with its own negatives moving forward, firstly no one knows whether the current BoD really is capable of improving their ability to run the Bulls as a business.
Secondly taking money from a sponsor this year will surely mean that those same sponsors won't be investing again next year, at least not to the same extent, so you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Thirdly if an individual is thinking of stumping up tens of thousands of pounds towards saving the Bulls but having nothing to show for their investment then surely they'd be better advised to wait for Administration buy them and actualy own or part own the club.
The initial fund raising has been impressive and a testament to the Bradford fans and ex-players passion for the club but that impetus has now dwindled with just less than 25% of the required sum raised.
I Wish you the best of luck, I really do.
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| I don't know anything about how fan owned clubs work, but Bradford have asked their fans for the last few seasons to put money up front with their season ticket scheme and got around 11000 members. If they got just half of that, paying £25 per month to be a member, that's £1.65m.
Sounds like it could work, although I really don't know the complexities of how it would run.
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| Quote ="Lord Bruce Burton"What about the 170,000 members at Barcelona then?
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They elect a president who runs the club.
Do you seriously think all the members have a say in everything that needs to be decided on at one of the biggest football clubs in the world with hundreds of millions of pounds of turnover?
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| Quote ="Asim"They elect a president who runs the club.
Do you seriously think all the members have a say in everything that needs to be decided on at one of the biggest football clubs in the world with hundreds of millions of pounds of turnover?'"
Any organisation needs structure, but at least with a form of co-operative, the management are voted in and can of course be removed.
There is of course the oportunity for better transparency and the major plus, is that there should be less sel interest ?
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Any organisation needs structure, but at least with a form of co-operative, the management are voted in and can of course be removed.
There is of course the oportunity for better transparency and the major plus, is that there should be less sel interest ?'"
Don't get me wrong I think it's a good ownership model and something that I'd like clubs to look to replicate, there does seem to be a lot of mis-understanding about exactly how clubs like Barcelona & Real Madrid are run. You pay your membership and you get a vote in the presidential elections and anything extraordinary that comes up - they are not "fan run" in the way plenty assume, they are way too big as clubs and businesses for that to be viable.
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| Quote ="Asim"Don't get me wrong I think it's a good ownership model and something that I'd like clubs to look to replicate, there does seem to be a lot of mis-understanding about exactly how clubs like Barcelona & Real Madrid are run. You pay your membership and you get a vote in the presidential elections and anything extraordinary that comes up - they are not "fan run" in the way plenty assume, they are way too big as clubs and businesses for that to be viable.'"
Spot on.
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| Quote ="The Clan"Ady,
I'd be interested to know which Trinity fans you're particularly sick of and what advice they've had that you find so I'll informed?
From the outside looking at the two situations they are eerily simular,
Neither club owning its ground
The call to raise £500K (then another £500K in Bulls case)
A huge TAX bill being the catalyst
I'm not privy to the finer details of Bradfords business plan but a statement from the BoD telling everyone that "we'll be OK after we get the £Million" sounds a bit hollow so I hope you'll forgive the scepticism.
IMO the Trust could, and maybe you already have, set itself up as a credible option to buy the Bradford Bulls from the Administrator should the Bulls end up there. You might "get lucky" and someone could come in and do it for you but it won't hurt to be prepared.
From a Wakefield fans perspective I think the target of £500,000 + £500,000 is a virtual impossibility without massive donations from individuals or sponsors. That in itself comes with its own negatives moving forward, firstly no one knows whether the current BoD really is capable of improving their ability to run the Bulls as a business.
Secondly taking money from a sponsor this year will surely mean that those same sponsors won't be investing again next year, at least not to the same extent, so you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Thirdly if an individual is thinking of stumping up tens of thousands of pounds towards saving the Bulls but having nothing to show for their investment then surely they'd be better advised to wait for Administration buy them and actualy own or part own the club.
The initial fund raising has been impressive and a testament to the Bradford fans and ex-players passion for the club but that impetus has now dwindled with just less than 25% of the required sum raised.
I Wish you the best of luck, I really do.'"
I'd answer in full if more time, including naming those who - whilst I am sure are mostly well-meaning (not Vastman) - are IMO more likely to do harm than good. But check out RAB where a fair bit of the above is actually addressed, especially the misconceptions.
The biggest difference between Wakey and Bulls is that the Administrator would start with a much bigger day-to-day payroll cost and other costs aggregate cash outflow to try and cover. At Wakey, as I understand it, the administrator was able to cover most of the outgoings with the Sky money. At Bulls, he would need either significant external funding from Day 1 or to slash costs from Day 1. There are also further layers of complexity at Bradford regarding the RFL and the Council.
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| Quote ="Asim"Don't get me wrong I think it's a good ownership model and something that I'd like clubs to look to replicate, there does seem to be a lot of mis-understanding about exactly how clubs like Barcelona & Real Madrid are run. You pay your membership and you get a vote in the presidential elections and anything extraordinary that comes up - they are not "fan run" in the way plenty assume, they are way too big as clubs and businesses for that to be viable.'"
That sounds like it would transfer well into a smaller scale model in Bradford though doesn't it?
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| Quote ="jonny the leyther"That sounds like it would transfer well into a smaller scale model in Bradford though doesn't it?'"
In theory, yes, in reality maybe not.
Say you get 5000 people willing to pay £50 for the right to be a member with voting rights, that's £250,000 - which isn't going to get you very far - you then have to have a candidate to run the club (as president/chairman whatever) who is going to have the right contacts to be able to bring in the necessary income to make the club a success. So, in reality, it isn't much different to the situation that clubs in SL find themselves in now i.e. they have directors scratching around trying to find income to be able to run the club.
The advantage for the members is that if someone is making a pigs ear of running the operation, and there is an alternative, he/she can be turfed out - but if there is no alternative?
Personally I don't think Bradford, or any SL club, are big enough and would attract enough members or candidates/business partnerships to run the club to mimic the Barca/RM model, conversely we are too big to be able to be successfully supporter owned and operated.
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| There may be a middle way.
After all this is over, those of us currently charged with running the Supporters' Trust can and will look at future options, consulting with the members, the club and maybe other stakeholders.
But, as I keep stressing, there was never remotely enough time to stave off the current crisis by this means, nor is anything possible until a solution is found to the current crazy shareholding impasse. And anyone from Wakey or elsewhere who suggests otherwise is well-intentioned but misguided. Believe me
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| Quote ="Adeybull"But, as I keep stressing, there was never remotely enough time to stave off the current crisis by this means, nor is anything possible until a solution is found to the current crazy shareholding impasse.'"
Without a period of administration somewhere down the line, or someone/thing buying out the exisiting shareholders is there any other way to sort that out? I presume not?
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