So what is the best way, in your opinion, to expand at grassroots level?

The goal being to increase participation levels through getting schools playing and the creation of clubs.

So, for instance, if we targeted a city like Bristol. Where would we start? How would these clubs be created ‘artificially’? How would we get schools playing it?

What can realistically be done? Is it a case of marketing, or forging relationships with key people?

I’ve seen the London Club get a lot of praise for the spread of the game in London, but what if there’s no SL Club near by?

At grassroots level there is no point trying unless there are amateur clubs with youth sections in the area that the kids can play games at. Playing tag RL in a few PE lessons does not equal expansion in participation.

North Wales in and around Wrexham and the area between that and the heartland of the game should be the focus for youth development of this nature. That would provide playing and spectating opportunities for new players.

You know, I had a look at this from the perspective of a pro club a while back, and realistically, the numbers of kids you need playing the game regularly at 5 years old to sustain just one open age team is staggering.

The basic maths that me and a few other enlightened souls (ok, me and some mates in the pub at half time) came up with was that, to support 25 exceptional players making first grade (say 30% of the general population playing the game), with a 15% drop off in playing numbers from the age of 11 upwards, then the inevitable huge loss of playing staff at 16, say 40%.

Basically, to support a local players only pro team, say in the championship, you need about 10 000 kids or something ridiculous playing rugby league at age 5!

It was at this point, that someone mentioned south wales scorpions and how they are doing well. At this point we took our slice of humble pie and watched the game

So if an area has little or no amateur clubs, we should give up on it? I think you missed the point I was getting at (or perhaps I've missed yours?).

I was getting at how we start 'fresh' in an area, how we get the kids playing rugby at that early age, how we can set up clubs and get schools to not only play during a PE lesson, but set up school teams, leagues etc.

Bristol does have a club, the Bristol Sonics, Mike Coady came from there. I think they have youth development too.

The RFL don't 'artificially' start clubs, there has to be someone there who is dedicated enough to start it and a core group to be involved in running etc. The club will then either flourish and become successful, or it might fold in a few years. It's not really anything to do with the RFL and there's no way it could be, they can only support the clubs once they exist.

if you are breaking into an area, or aiming to, i think the schools are the way to start, getting the teachers onside, leading to small scale tag tournaments, trophies are always an incentive to schools.
Beyond this, i would look to develop one, maybe 2 teams of the better, or more enthusiastic kids, maybe playing a east V west game (keep the teachers involved), and selecting an "all town" team from this. Its always good to support these things with promotion of your club to the kids (marketing ploy that it is).

Take this team out against other local teams, and things develop from there.

If you can create a stigma about playing for you school, district, or town, the kids will aim for this in years to come.

Good luck to you mate, as it really can be a struggle, for instance, it took Chorley Panthers the best part of 20 years to get to where they are now, but they have got players coming through the systems and going to Super league now.

Stick with it

Promoting of rl over ru in schools is key. 1 rl it is logical to conclude an rl team is cheaper for a school to run due to a) less kits to buy and b) no expensive scrum/mauling machines to purchase.

Training can be more fun and wholely inclusive. I.e not spending an hour getting cold practicing lineouts (boring!) while the backs run fancy moves that you never see in a game due to the pretentious prat wearing 10 deciding to hoof the ball up the pitch for no good reason whenever he touches it. Rant aside the game should appeal more to schools and the rfl should push it!

Grassroots expansion has been on going since the Rugby League Conference started in 1997, from the link you can see the regional leagues that now exist in non heartland areas and the RFL should be applauded for it. www.rugbyleagueconference.co.uk/ ... ables?c=13 Quote ="chubbs1981"Promoting of rl over ru in schools is key. 1 rl it is logical to conclude an rl team is cheaper for a school to run due to a) less kits to buy and b) no expensive scrum/mauling machines to purchase. '" Why would RL kits be cheaper? Buying playing shirts is a pretty minimal cost. I went to a school that was big on RU and we didnt have a scrumaging machine, I dont think any school would have one, well maybe some rich private schools do. Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a mauling machine. Getting RL playing in more schools is key, I dont think theres any easy way of doing this though, I think its more down to lots of individuals rather than the RFL. The growth of the champion schools competition suggests school RL is growing.

Grassroots expansion has been on going since the Rugby League Conference started in 1997, from the link you can see the regional leagues that now exist in non heartland areas and the RFL should be applauded for it. www.rugbyleagueconference.co.uk/ ... ables?c=13 Quote ="chubbs1981"Promoting of rl over ru in schools is key. 1 rl it is logical to conclude an rl team is cheaper for a school to run due to a) less kits to buy and b) no expensive scrum/mauling machines to purchase. '" Why would RL kits be cheaper? Buying playing shirts is a pretty minimal cost. I went to a school that was big on RU and we didnt have a scrumaging machine, I dont think any school would have one, well maybe some rich private schools do. Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a mauling machine. Getting RL playing in more schools is key, I dont think theres any easy way of doing this though, I think its more down to lots of individuals rather than the RFL. The growth of the champion schools competition suggests school RL is growing.

There is a tried and tested process that does work in many sports. Its currently working very well in Trafford thanks to Salford Reds, the RFL and the North Trafford Sports Partnership.

1 Delivery in curriculum time
2 Delivery for after school clubs
3 Festivals and competition in school time
4 Festivals and competition out of school time
5 Formation of a junior club
6 Nuture and development of the infrastructure - volunteers, officials, coaches, refs, facility use etc...
7 Regular competition
8 Links to elite pathway

Thing is from 1 to 8 can take years to impliment. It has to be constant, regular and reliable. Break the chain and you start back at one again.

Its these steps that have created clubs all over the country. Those that fail, fail on one of the points and have to go back to point one! Skipping too far too soon also has the same effect.

You are way off on your figures. Even in the places like Wigan you wouldnt have a few hundred playing at the age of 5, or the age of 10 for that matter.

Quote ="Scorpions for SL" Why would RL kits be cheaper? Buying playing shirts is a pretty minimal cost. I went to a school that was big on RU and we didnt have a scrumaging machine, I dont think any school would have one, well maybe some rich private schools do. Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a mauling machine. '" I went to a state comp. We had a scrum machine and In fact only 1 school we played against didn't and they had only just started up the rugby program. As for kits for schools an ru kit is 22 shirts and rl kit would have what 17-18 over 5-6 teams for the whole school equals a saving of 1 full kit granted only a couple of hundred quid but every penny counts. www.predator.uk.com/mauling.htm a mauling machine/sled

Quote ="Scorpions for SL" Why would RL kits be cheaper? Buying playing shirts is a pretty minimal cost. I went to a school that was big on RU and we didnt have a scrumaging machine, I dont think any school would have one, well maybe some rich private schools do. Im pretty sure there is no such thing as a mauling machine. '" I went to a state comp. We had a scrum machine and In fact only 1 school we played against didn't and they had only just started up the rugby program. As for kits for schools an ru kit is 22 shirts and rl kit would have what 17-18 over 5-6 teams for the whole school equals a saving of 1 full kit granted only a couple of hundred quid but every penny counts. www.predator.uk.com/mauling.htm a mauling machine/sled

Quote ="chubbs1981"I went to a state comp. We had a scrum machine and In fact only 1 school we played against didn't and they had only just started up the rugby program. As for kits for schools an ru kit is 22 shirts and rl kit would have what 17-18 over 5-6 teams for the whole school equals a saving of 1 full kit granted only a couple of hundred quid but every penny counts. www.predator.uk.com/mauling.htm a mauling machine/sled'" Im sorry but I think your I played RU all through school (7 years) and dont remember ever seeing a scrum machine at any other schools at away games. Scrumaging isnt a big part of the game at low level RU and especially not in kids rugby. As for the number of players, in pro rugby yes match day squads are bigger in RU, but in junior rugby the number of subs is just however many kids are left over after the starting line up has been picked. Also the shirts we used to wear were hand me downs 5+years old, its not going to be a major cost to a school, and also are you seriously suggesting that schools will play RL over RU because you believe it will cost them less in playing shirts which it wont do anyway

Quote ="chubbs1981"I went to a state comp. We had a scrum machine and In fact only 1 school we played against didn't and they had only just started up the rugby program. As for kits for schools an ru kit is 22 shirts and rl kit would have what 17-18 over 5-6 teams for the whole school equals a saving of 1 full kit granted only a couple of hundred quid but every penny counts. www.predator.uk.com/mauling.htm a mauling machine/sled'" Im sorry but I think your I played RU all through school (7 years) and dont remember ever seeing a scrum machine at any other schools at away games. Scrumaging isnt a big part of the game at low level RU and especially not in kids rugby. As for the number of players, in pro rugby yes match day squads are bigger in RU, but in junior rugby the number of subs is just however many kids are left over after the starting line up has been picked. Also the shirts we used to wear were hand me downs 5+years old, its not going to be a major cost to a school, and also are you seriously suggesting that schools will play RL over RU because you believe it will cost them less in playing shirts which it wont do anyway

I'm not sure what sort of special school you went to or where it was but down here in the darkest southwest we got a new school kit each year. And as for scrummaging not being big part of the game at kids level? Down here it's the main part if the game. We is renowned down ere for producing top class front rows.

And for a school to set up from scratch a rugby team it requires much less in terms of time and money to get a team up and running if it's rl. Not having to teach ru rucking and mauling all those stupid lineout laws that change as the age grades do.

So your school bought approximatly 100 rugby kits every year? Maybe this is the waste the conservative government is talking about cutting.

well no the school didn't our sponsors did

on very good terms with a local car dealer.

anyway lets not derail the thread with the darker code. but i'm more than happy to continue this converstation this coming super sunday at the Gnoll i'll probably be there in time for the dragonhearts game and will stay till the end of the crusaers match has finished. how about a beer and exchange of views at say 2.30pm? mines a Guinness cheers for offering.

My mummy said I shouldnt meet strangers of the internet.

Very few schools buy kits. They play in their PE tops so they wash them themselves. Much easier and ensures they fit!!

My school plays both as many many do. Not seen any scrum machines IIRC at any state comps in the last 6 years Ive been teaching.

Its not cost at all that determines what schools play. Its either tradition of the school, especially for the grammar schools or old grammar schools or it is the preference of the PE staff in the department.

Both the RFU and the RFL run their competitions for free unlike the FA who charge for comps entered. Doesnt hamper schools football - though the behaviour of footballers in general is damaging schools football massively

Chubbs you've got as much chance of seeing him at the game as Iolo.

could that be something to do with him not actually being a scorpions fan?

Surely not!!

We used to use the second XV for mauling practice


League is a better option for schools due to the scrum.......ie, insurance on kids packing down can't be cheap. I am sure there was a story a few years back about Harrow School looking at switching codes due to the whole neck injury thing.....