We have already seen ' the word ' of the RFL in the transparent Licence decisions , and to tell the truth I no longer care if Leigh ever get another shot at SL as long as we see a better more constructive approach to the NL/Championsips

I wont be holding my breath

I wouldn’t be shocked at all by it. In fact I fully expect it to happen. I expected the licence criteria to be robust and honest. I expected Widnes’ application, put together at great expense to the club, to be either thrown out for being a new club with only 7 - 8 months financial records, or accepted and judged fairly. Widnes’ financial part of their bid would have to have been robust, but a £500,000 guarantee seems just about as robust as you could get. Yet they failed Widnes for only having 7 months worth of financial records. The question asked by many, including Halton MP Derrick Twigg in Parliament, was why didn’t the RFL simply tell the club not to waste it’s money applying this time around, as it is impossible to gain a licence after only 7-8 months in business? It just makes no sense at all!

Now, I’m not just having a whinge about why Widnes didn’t get a licence. I am largely over the anger, but it illustrates perfectly why I have little faith in anything the RFL say. There is a clear agenda of expansion, even if the RFL lack the courage to come out and say so directly.

The initial offer of a guaranteed place in SL 2012 – for an NL/Championship side that meets the criteria – looks, to me, to have only been put forward by the RFL to placate the top four or five clubs, with SL aspirations, in order that they accept the new Licence system, which banishes them all for a minimum of 3 years from SL. At least, so they thought, they’ll have one more shot at it in 2011.

Once the RFL made that promise it meant they either had to demote a current SL club or expand SL to 15 clubs in 2012. Either way, a very difficult choice would have to be made. So this would mean, if they want to carry on with an expansionist agenda, it would be far easier to promote an expansion club by using the ‘Guaranteed Championship place’. The fact is there may not be one current SL club that deserves to be demoted in 2012. In that case they would have to expand SL to 16 clubs in order to accommodate both a heartland and an expansion club. I doubt there will be enough talent and money for that to be a viable option. Perhaps SL could be expanded to 15, at a push, but not 16 imo. I think they would expand to 15 to accommodate an expansion club, but not a traditional club, especially with Toulouse and Gateshead in the Championship.

This time the RFL had the luxury of being able to promote an expansion club along with a heartland club. If they wish to do that again, they’ll probably have to kick two current clubs out, or kick out one club and expand to 15. Unless a couple of current SL clubs go pop, over the next three years, I pretty sure that two clubs will not be kicked out. So that leaves option 2. The RFL have already admitted that they may have to expand the league to 15 clubs, in order to comply with their promise, but I think they may be basing that on the possibility they may have no club they can demote in 2012. Imo the only reason TO didn't get the same deal as Les Catalans instead is because of these possible complications.

Imo a Yorkshire club will be booted out of SL 2012 and Toulouse will take their place in a 14 club SL, providing they don’t go into financial meltdown. Even if you think Toulouse will bring some benefit to the Championship, in the form of interest and finance, the massive cost to the RFL of transporting 11 clubs back and fourth from the South of France for three years will vastly outweigh any such benefit, (not to mention the on-going problems many amateur players will have getting time off work to travel to France over the next three years). I don’t see this money being on offer after the next round of licences and Toulouse will either be promoted to SL in 2012 or end up back in their own French league.

If I’m honest I genuinely thought that Toulouse were a far better bet for expansion than the Crusaders, and was surprised when they didn’t get the nod ahead of them. I can only assume that this is the only way the RFL thought they’d have a chance to get them both over time. I’ve no axe to grind with either club, I hope they both do well, I just don’t trust the RFL. Experience has shown them to be dishonest and totally ruthless with the future of smaller, heartland clubs. Unfortunately this gets lost in a barrage of name-calling. Anyone who doesn’t agree with the way the RFL are managing expansion is nothing more than a xenophobic old flat capper to some people on these boards.


I hope you are right, and the RFL do the honorable thing, but the word honour and the RFL just don't sit right to me.

Then good riddance to SL

Much as I dont like this tactic

Would you like to provide a link to anything mentioning Toulouse and extra SKY money for the NLs/Championships ?

Or even a mention of SKY money and the NL's / Championships ?

As for the travel costs , they would be the same

As for the relegation issue , there should be no restrictions on movement between 2 divisions of the same competition , many supporters of expansion have argued that very point on these boards many times

I actually think that Toulouse in the same league as Widnes, Leigh, Halifax etc, could be a good thing in terms of the next round of licences. Lets face it if Toulouse were in their own league, the RFL could have put them into SL without question and without direct comparisons to UK clubs. IF Toulouse consistantly fail in the Championship, it would be almost impossible to include them next time around. Haven't the RFL also said that despite Toulouse having an increased quota for 2009, by 2010 this has to reduced to the same as UK clubs? Maybe the RFL are getting worried about strength of the English game and are hoping Toulouse will fail so that they can concentrate more on Engilsh clubs developing English players. When the playing strength of the national side is as low as it has been for some time, are they worried about what might happen if they are seen to be aiding the French development instead of looking closer to home? The biggest problem regarding the next few years is the percieved lack of level playing field. If there was no salary cap and one club can afford better players than others, thats fair enough, but if you get one club who spend what they want and others are told you can't bring players in because of the cap, then it can only lead to accusations about favouritism. All the major candidates should be in the same league playing from the same set of rules. If Gateshead or Toulouse finish top 2 in the next 2 seasons, each with a large percentage of foreign players and one of them gets a licence then the other clubs and their fans will quite rightly say "here we go again, another Celtic job" As Starbug has said for some time now, the gimmicks and helping hands needs to stop. Celtic with their near full team of foreign players over the past 2 years has stopped other sides getting promotion into NL1 and also to the NL1 grand finals - not really off the back of hard work and that they earned it on merit. It was purley on the basis that they have rich backer who was allowed to sign whoever they wanted. Imagine if in the premier league, the FA said right we want East Anglia club to do well and increase particiaption levels in that area. Everyone else can only spend x amount of money and can only sign certain players, but Ipswich can sign whoever they like. It sounds ridiculous and would never happen in a million years. It makes a mokery of the competition and is possibly turning some fans away from the sport because of it. As Starbug has also said, if the RFL are that desperate to get certain teams or geographical areas into SL, then the RFL should just come out and say that and put them straight into SL. Because of what happened with Celtic and the way they went about things Starbug has rightly said why even bother putting them in NL's in the 1st place? Its not as if they managed to build any sort of fan base - I guess the NL's were just used as a dummy run to make sure they had the background staff in place and had a few players to take with them into SL so they didn't have to sign a whole new squad from scratch. Its not a very nice feeling to think you're club is playing in a biased competition or that you know that no matter what your club does or says it won't make a difference come decision time. I mean Widnes had this to announce yesterday widnesvikings.co.uk/view_news.php?ID=400 Widnes new signings are ‘ace' according to Head of Youth Development Stuart Wilkinson. The signings of the six scholarship players last weekend has been helped by the Club's involvement with the Advanced Apprenticeship in Sporting Excellence, (AASE). Do you think anyone from the RFL is [ithat[/i interested about Widnes are trying to do - youth development wise?

I actually think that Toulouse in the same league as Widnes, Leigh, Halifax etc, could be a good thing in terms of the next round of licences. Lets face it if Toulouse were in their own league, the RFL could have put them into SL without question and without direct comparisons to UK clubs. IF Toulouse consistantly fail in the Championship, it would be almost impossible to include them next time around. Haven't the RFL also said that despite Toulouse having an increased quota for 2009, by 2010 this has to reduced to the same as UK clubs? Maybe the RFL are getting worried about strength of the English game and are hoping Toulouse will fail so that they can concentrate more on Engilsh clubs developing English players. When the playing strength of the national side is as low as it has been for some time, are they worried about what might happen if they are seen to be aiding the French development instead of looking closer to home? The biggest problem regarding the next few years is the percieved lack of level playing field. If there was no salary cap and one club can afford better players than others, thats fair enough, but if you get one club who spend what they want and others are told you can't bring players in because of the cap, then it can only lead to accusations about favouritism. All the major candidates should be in the same league playing from the same set of rules. If Gateshead or Toulouse finish top 2 in the next 2 seasons, each with a large percentage of foreign players and one of them gets a licence then the other clubs and their fans will quite rightly say "here we go again, another Celtic job" As Starbug has said for some time now, the gimmicks and helping hands needs to stop. Celtic with their near full team of foreign players over the past 2 years has stopped other sides getting promotion into NL1 and also to the NL1 grand finals - not really off the back of hard work and that they earned it on merit. It was purley on the basis that they have rich backer who was allowed to sign whoever they wanted. Imagine if in the premier league, the FA said right we want East Anglia club to do well and increase particiaption levels in that area. Everyone else can only spend x amount of money and can only sign certain players, but Ipswich can sign whoever they like. It sounds ridiculous and would never happen in a million years. It makes a mokery of the competition and is possibly turning some fans away from the sport because of it. As Starbug has also said, if the RFL are that desperate to get certain teams or geographical areas into SL, then the RFL should just come out and say that and put them straight into SL. Because of what happened with Celtic and the way they went about things Starbug has rightly said why even bother putting them in NL's in the 1st place? Its not as if they managed to build any sort of fan base - I guess the NL's were just used as a dummy run to make sure they had the background staff in place and had a few players to take with them into SL so they didn't have to sign a whole new squad from scratch. Its not a very nice feeling to think you're club is playing in a biased competition or that you know that no matter what your club does or says it won't make a difference come decision time. I mean Widnes had this to announce yesterday widnesvikings.co.uk/view_news.php?ID=400 Widnes new signings are ‘ace' according to Head of Youth Development Stuart Wilkinson. The signings of the six scholarship players last weekend has been helped by the Club's involvement with the Advanced Apprenticeship in Sporting Excellence, (AASE). Do you think anyone from the RFL is [ithat[/i interested about Widnes are trying to do - youth development wise?

Well At least you have admitted that your moaning and whining has nothing to do with what you actually think clubs can or will achieve, but on your jealousy that Leigh cant and wont achieve what they have,
Keeping Celtic in the championship, as you yourself have said on many many occasions, would not only be pointless from Celtics point of view, but in your opinion, bad for the league, Gateshead on the other hand, who are doing the exact same, and have been for longer, with much less success, are somehow a benefit and ‘real expansion’. Which you seem to think means not quite successful

As for including Toulouse in there, its complete, unadulterated idiocy. Toulouse are nearly as old as Castleford, they aren’t expansion, they are simply putting a pathway in place to get to SL from areas we are already strong, They will have fewer overseas players than Gateshead or Skolars, they have a fantastic academy set up which rivals anything in the championship, and have great links with the local business community. Toulouse have spent nigh on 80 years in the ‘lower’ league, they have done their time

Needing to put down a £500k bond is hardly the showing of a credible business is it?How could the RFL have told Widnes their bid would fail having not seen theirs or anyone else’s bid? Had they done this, Im sure we would have seen many Widnes fans using this an example of how the RFL was persecuting them

The RFL have been fairly open and honest about the need and will for expansion

So why did they need to add Toulouse if it was all part of this conspiracy? They could just promote Gateshead, or London, or a Scottish/Irish side which enters, and wasn’t the offer of a place to join what was then NL1 made at the same time as the offer of a place to a championship club that meets the criteria?

But if they are going to 15 they can promote Toulouse, worst comes to the worst they fulfil their promise and make SL go to 16! The problems regarding player pool are much less pronounced when one of the clubs in French who aren’t going to be picking from the UK player pool



transporting 11 sides, once, isnt going to cost a whole lot of money, and certainly not more than the french federation have already been able to pull in selling the TV rights in france

as for amateur players, that really isnt Toulouse's problem, if a club cant raise a side to travel then maybe the second tier of RL isnt for them



they are more than that, they are generally ill-informed, and do generally make the evidence fit their pre-existing conclusions than look at whats in front of them and make a conclusion from that,

the RFL is in better financial shape than it has ever been, the game at the top level is in better financial shape than it has ever been, only now has it managed to get to a stage where a meaningful amount can start to filter down to the lower levels. This TV deal is a vast improvement on the last one, and in three years time we will get an even better one, we have an international game, we have had a world cup which made money, the tri-nations makes money, We have been able to source a massive massive grant from sport england for (actual) grass roots rugby league, we are attracting more money from sponsors, The game is vibrant, exciting and in fantastic shape off the field, all this is down to decisions that have been taken for the long term good of the sport, it took us over a hundred years to see that petty parochial in fighting was killing the game, thankfully we have a man who is above it and he has led us to a huge improvement, not perfection, but a massive improvement.


you have complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs, but Widnes went bust, the structure they had clearly wasnt working, it obviously and unarguably wasnt sustainable, we couldnt put Widnes in SL with that structure, and it would take an amazingly monumental effort, to put in place a structure that would work, and prove it would work in 7 months, Celtic and Salford already had these things in place, Salford had been in SL for a few years which obviously gave them an advantage, and they were clearly the best club in NL1, Celtic meanwhile have seen nothing but success, what they were doing clearly was working, surely it would have been unfair to put in a club which had proved nothing but failure ahead of two clubs which had seen success,

The RFL did exactly the right thing, Widnes now have 3 years to regroup and come back, FWIW i think they will be in in 2012, i think one of Wakefield and Castleford will drop out, and Toulouse and Widnes will go up to make a 15 team league, and in 2015 we will lose 1 more club (probably HKR) and promote a scottish/irish club along with Gateshead/sheffield/skolars

1). I think there are only three Championship clubs who had a reasonable chance at SL, being Leigh, Widnes and Fax.

2). The player pool argument, it's a good one and one that all the Championship sides should consider. The SL needs more players produced for it to work, Gateshead has an appeal as a new market, but also because it produces new players from an area that would not be playing for ... (say HKR). If anything the player pool is an argument for expansion and against promoting from the Championship. The only way to solve this is to place great emphasis on player production in the next round of franchises.

3). Salford are an expansion club.

4). I hope I'm right, but I understand your scheptisism and am wary myself.

1). I believe that Gateshead and TO have a slightly increased overseas allowance, but that it will be evened out next year. I can see what you're saying and I think that in the cases mentioned (especially TO) I would agree with the feelings of the other fans.

2). NL1, now the Championship, has always had a problem with marketing itself - it was always viewed as the training ground for SL, or the "almost in" SL. This is the fans' view though, which does need remedying. IF fans view TO being added as making the comp a biased training ground, as opposed to seeing it as adding value to the competition, then it is very difficult to find a way of packaging it as a viable stand alone competiton.

3). I expect that youth development will count double in the next franchising round.

Yes they have been ' expanding ' since 1879

Yes they were allowed an extra 4 players because they had already signed them apparently , this was back in September

And yet they were announcing new players a couple of weeks ago , how strange ?

They had to do this because they only had financial records going back 7 months. A unique position, thus a unique necessity to Widnes’ bid that pretty much guaranteed they would not go pop within the 3 year period of the licence. It was, in no way, an indictment on the business plan on the business plan put forward by the club.



Of course they have, but you’d have to have faith in the robustness of the licence criteria and the emphasis placed on expansion, an area they denied as being important before it started. Imo CC could not have gained a licence without their bid being judged almost solely on expansion; going by their own criteria and rules. They have the infrastructure and support base of an NL2 club.


Because there is no clear benefit to the Championship clubs having Toulouse in their league, except for a free junket for their respective officials. Gateshead don’t have the kind of backer CC have, neither do the other clubs you mentioned. This would make the survival of clubs, with shallow attendance figures and a poor infrastructure, almost solely dependent on the TV money. If CC didn’t have Leighton Samuel, they wouldn’t have got a licence either. I think Toulouse already have a decent infrastructure, with access to modern stadia and players from the French Elite, in an area that, as you say, has been playing the game for as long as Castleford. The RFL now have a direct route to bring in Toulouse to ESL, via the Championship, without having to break any promises about promoting a Championship club. They’ll be able to justify the ESL tag, start to cast off the cloth cap, northern image and have a massive French derby, which may generate even more money for the two French clubs and possibly more interest in the South of France. Why would an organisation, with an expansionist agenda, which sees little future for “small northern clubs” promote a “small northern club” and leave even more “small northern clubs” in SL, when they can leave all the “small northern clubs” in the Championship leagues and even get rid of another one from SL to join them?


Because they simply don’t have to worry about that now. I think that going to 15 will be a last resort, and would only happen if there was absolutely no way there was a current SL club to relegate. The RFL can’t be too sure how things will be, with regards to future TV deals, how competitive a 14 club SL will be, never mind 15 or 16. This way they will only have to promote one club, at most – the one they actually want. The other factor, as V4E has pointed out, will be the testing ground factor the Championship will offer the RFL to assess Toulouse by. It would also help produce a stronger, tested squad that would be able to draw from the federation pool, which includes English players. Just the same as Les Catalans.



I disagree. I think it will cost one hell of a lot of cash and, once Toulouse are in SL, it will not happen again.


Well that’s very nice for TO, I’m sure, but this is a largely semi-pro league. Therefore some clubs may not be able to field a full side and some players may no longer regard playing in the Championship worth their while, particularly these days with employers strapped for cash and labour cut to the bone.


I’ve read many of your turgid posts which seem nothing more than freeform psychosis. They switch this way and that, with double standards applied wherever I look. I’ll leave it at that, Smokey.



My point exactly. The RFL told Steve O’Connor that wouldn’t be a problem as long as he had a good business plan and put financial guarantees in place. Therefore, if you look at what you have written there, why accept a bid from such a club, without first telling the club they’ll be wasting £20,000 because they have no chance because they only have 7 months trading, and then accept a bid having told the club only having 7 months trading wasn’t a problem, and then reject that bid because they only have 7 months trading behind them?

That makes no sense to me at all - in fact it’s totally potty and dishonest.


Some of that is true, but most is just your opinion. There’s nothing wrong with that, but my opinion is different. You have also skirted around an awful lot of other pros and cons that would shed a very different light on the situation.

I only used the way I thought Widnes were treated, at the start of my last post, in order to point out part of the reason I do not trust the RFL. My main point was to address the theme of this thread. That involved trying to assess why I think Toulouse have been placed in the Championship, and thus, what the future holds for them. I was not intending, and do not intend under any circumstance, to go over the same old crap again I accept that the clubs the RFL want in SL are the clubs they will get and that’s probably how it will pan out next time too.


If the RFL are in a position to promote two teams in 2011, then Widnes will have a very good chance. I’m not ruling it out, but regard it as unlikely. I think SL will remain at 14, with Wakey dropping and Toulouse stepping in. I fully understand why the RFL would find this attractive. I don’t fully agree with all their logic, but I understand it.

No the offer to Toulouse was made after the NL clubs had been promised one of them would get a guaranteed place in 2012

10 Side once , 1 Side 10 times

They havent sold anything for any money , not even the Catalans have done that

So what would your opinion been had Celtic not been able to raise a decent side against Leeds this week because of thier poor administration , which looks like it needed RFL intervention to sort out , maybe the top tier of RL isn't for them

He hasn't complained that expansion was put ahead of heartland clubs , he has complained that the RFL dont have the balls to admit it

they had to do this because their business plan clearly didnt have the necessary evidence behind it that others did, and clearly couldnt prove it was sustainable




thats your opinion, and your welcome to it, but you cant pretend it is based in fact or has anything like conclusive evidence behind it!
Celtic may have the support base of an NL2 club ( they dont their attendance was comparable to most) but they clearly dont have the infrastructure of one, if there is one thing you cant fault them for its their infrastructure




what a strange argument, there is do clear benefit to having dewsbury in the championship!

and im not sure what this has to do with what i said, which was why the need for the conspiracy of offering a place to the NL1 clubs and bringing toulouse in to take that when there are other expansion clubs to promote from the championship? if the RFL are going to promote Toulouse they can promote them from the Elite, and promote Gateshead/sheffield/london/whoever and still make good on their promise!


how many english players do Les Catalans have? that isnt the point in putting Toulouse or Les Catalans in. When/if promoted i dont think we will see any british players playing for toulouse, so they arent taking from the british player pool! 16 teams would give us a league structure which matches the NRL allowing use to have the seasons co-incide



we have already been told it will happen with Ireland pretty soon, it wont be much cheaper to fly to dublin than to Toulouse, so it will happen again, how much do expect it to cost for 11 teams to fly over to toulouse and play? a fair few amateur teams fly over to france or the french fly here, its not a massive issue



then the second tier of RL isnt the place for them, if they arent committed enough to fly to the south of france for a couple of days once a season, then they arent committed enough to play at this level, theres plenty of clubs in Championship 1 who they could play for.




or, they had the opportunty to prove that they had put these structures in place, and prove they would work, they failed to do this. going bust obviously made it harder, it didnt make it impossible. And again, had the RFL pre-judged Widnes application before seeing it, that would in itself be used by the Widnes fans to pretend they were persecuted


and i am showing you this distrust is misplaced


well then why distrust it if you understand why it is being done?

no, the french federation have sold the SL rights, and the rights to 5( I think, it may 4) Toulouse games for about $400k







they would still have been able to raise a side you idiot, are we saying the same for Hudds? Leeds? Sts? or is it purely a stick to beat celtic with?

well done on missing the point, that was quite an acheivement

No point was missed as usual you just pretend to make a point that was never there in the first place

read again when you quoted! it specifically says the french federation



it wasnt Pepes point it was yours, and an utterly ridiculous one at that! the team they put out, bar the 8 Australians who had visa issues (something that has affected a lot of clubs, but seems to be something we should only criticise celtic for) would still have been better than anything the Championships sides could put out

the next sentence or so makes the point, which is difference, thats why you needed to selectively quote only part of a sentence

For the next round, if we keep the same number of UK clubs or expand will will need to increase player pool to support those clubs under the curent overseas players cap. Any club that does not produce its own players will not survive in SL. I expect that the RFL will make no announcement on this, as it will be a last minute decision with all the facts in hand. But I can't see how any club will make the SL in 2012 if they can't develop their own players - we're short already.

As to a link, more money is being made available to the Championship, there was an announcement on that, which you are as able as me to google for. There is increased televised Championship matches, the money for the Championship clubs comes from the new TV deal. Part of that TV deal is the higher profile of the Championship, of which TO is a part.

Link ?

So the RFL will look at the ' facts to hand ' and then make decision , that sounds suspiciously like ' make the rules suit what we want '

By the way , when you say clubs develop thier own players , do you meant Championship clubs developing Championship players or Championship clubs developing SL players ?

No chance once again we bend over for foreigners, if Tlouse had started in nl2 and worked up that would have been acceptable a bit but all nl2 clubs rejected them so nl1 teams showed how lily livered they are.

So:
- If they are included straight into SL it's unfair because they bypass the Championship.
- If they start in the Championship it's unfair because they bypass Championship1 AND it's too expensive for the other clubs to play them.
- If they start in Championship1 it's too expensive for the clubs to play them.

I suggest you either:
- Figure out a way to include a French club into the higher division which avoids the above problems.
or
- Admit that no matter how it happens you will be opposed to it.

Yes leave them where they are , unfortunatley they might not have anywhere else to play from now on as they seem to have p155ed off the other French clubs

What reasons were given for them not being allowed into the Lord Derby cup ?

I understand that the reason they couldn't enter the Lord Derby was that another team had been voted into their position which meant that the usual 32-16-8-4-2 format couldn't have been continued with.

So the Elite clubs we not willing to inconvienience themselves to help the club that has expessed a desire to move to a supposed better competition

Better hope they are a success or they might not let them back in if things dont work out