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| 2 leagues of 10 would be the best way to with 1 up down
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| Quote ="rhinos21"2 leagues of 10 would be the best way to with 1 up down'"
That'll confuse 'em
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| Quote ="Him"For exactly the reasons I stated. It takes into account the club over a number of years rather than the team in 1 year. If you are so opposed to the strength of the team being the deciding factor then why are you annoyed that Crusaders were brought into Super League?
SL was expanded by 2 places and it took the top 2 teams in the NL. If there had been P&R that year then Crusaders would have been promoted anyway.'"
Did they not finish second in that season ?
I'm not trying to be pedantic, but even myself as an advocate of P/R wouldn't suggest 2 up 2 down.
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| Quote ="rhinos21"2 leagues of 10 would be the best way to with 1 up down'"
How would that have helped the Bulls and going back to the title of the thread how would it help Fax ?
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| Quote ="Him"For exactly the reasons I stated. It takes into account the club over a number of years rather than the team in 1 year.=#FF0000 If you are so opposed to the strength of the team being the deciding factor then why are you annoyed that Crusaders were brought into Super League?
SL was expanded by 2 places and it took the top 2 teams in the NL. If there had been P&R that year then Crusaders would have been promoted anyway.'"
Because the RFL were funding the Celtic Crusaders by filtering large amounts of money through Leighton Samuels company disguised as ' Community Development Grants ' , the Celtic Crusaders were operating as a full time squad , even the 17 players cars would have taken up half the salary cap in NL 1 , let alone NL 2
And lets not bring up the ' Visa ' issue again shall we , there were some very twitchy bums at Red Hall when that broke
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Did they not finish second in that season ?
I'm not trying to be pedantic, but even myself as an advocate of P/R wouldn't suggest 2 up 2 down.
'"
The league was expanded by 2 teams, so naturally the top 2 "teams" in the NL would be promoted to SL.
Quote ="Starbug"Quote ="Him"For exactly the reasons I stated. It takes into account the club over a number of years rather than the team in 1 year.=#FF0000 If you are so opposed to the strength of the team being the deciding factor then why are you annoyed that Crusaders were brought into Super League?
SL was expanded by 2 places and it took the top 2 teams in the NL. If there had been P&R that year then Crusaders would have been promoted anyway.'"
Because the RFL were funding the Celtic Crusaders by filtering large amounts of money through Leighton Samuels company disguised as ' Community Development Grants ' , the Celtic Crusaders were operating as a full time squad , even the 17 players cars would have taken up half the salary cap in NL 1 , let alone NL 2
And lets not bring up the ' Visa ' issue again shall we , there were some very twitchy bums at Red Hall when that broke'"
So what would have stopped that happening under P&R? Crusaders would still have been in SL regardless of whether there was licensing or not as they finished 2nd in the NL.
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| Quote ="Him"The league was expanded by 2 teams, so naturally the top 2 "teams" in the NL would be promoted to SL.
So what would have stopped that happening under P&R? Crusaders would still have been in SL regardless of whether there was licensing or not as they finished 2nd in the NL.'"
So you are ' OK ' with this ?
Quote Because the RFL were funding the Celtic Crusaders by filtering large amounts of money through Leighton Samuels company disguised as ' Community Development Grants ' , the Celtic Crusaders were operating as a full time squad , even the 17 players cars would have taken up half the salary cap in NL 1 , let alone NL 2 '"
You dont think it was a ' tad ' unfair ?
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| Quote ="Him"The league was expanded by 2 teams, so naturally the top 2 "teams" in the NL would be promoted to SL.
So what would have stopped that happening under P&R? Crusaders would still have been in SL regardless of whether there was licensing or not as they finished 2nd in the NL.'"
You've just completed a full lap there.
I said earlier that SL was expanded and that franchising was brought in to expand the game and allow the Crusaders to come in and although they would have been promoted IF we had 2 up 2 down, at the time this was not the case.
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| Quote ="rhinos21"2 leagues of 10 would be the best way to with 1 up down'"
What??!!!
No Franchises? no Licenses?!?!?
Then what are we all going to talk about?!
..........On field performance?
...dont be daft!
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| Quote ="Starbug"So you are ' OK ' with this ?
You dont think it was a ' tad ' unfair ?'"
I'm not ok with P&R based only on team performance, no. That only works when there is a far smaller gap between leagues.
Am I ok with the RFL helping out a new club with the potential Crusaders had, in an expansion area, yes. In the same way you think the RFL should run and provide financial assistance to London Broncos.
Quote ="wrencat1873"Quote ="Him"The league was expanded by 2 teams, so naturally the top 2 "teams" in the NL would be promoted to SL.
So what would have stopped that happening under P&R? Crusaders would still have been in SL regardless of whether there was licensing or not as they finished 2nd in the NL.'"
You've just completed a full lap there.
I said earlier that SL was expanded and that franchising was brought in to expand the game and allow the Crusaders to come in and although they would have been promoted IF we had 2 up 2 down, at the time this was not the case.'"
No I haven't, I was meaning if there had been no licensing and under a normal P&R system, with an expansion of SL the top 2 NL teams would have been promoted at the end of the 2008 season. Crusaders were the 2nd best NL team.
So the argument that licensing was either designed purely to admit Crusaders, that somehow Widnes or Fev would have been in SL if it weren't for licensing or that licensing led to Crusaders problems is just wrong.
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| Quote ="Him"I'm not ok with P&R based only on team performance, no. That only works when there is a far smaller gap between leagues.
Am I ok with the RFL helping out a new club with the potential Crusaders had, in an expansion area, yes. In the same way you think the RFL should run and provide financial assistance to London Broncos.
No I haven't, I was meaning if there had been no licensing and under a normal P&R system, with an expansion of SL the top 2 NL teams would have been promoted at the end of the 2008 season. Crusaders were the 2nd best NL team.
So the argument that licensing was either designed purely to admit Crusaders, that somehow Widnes or Fev would have been in SL if it weren't for licensing or that licensing led to Crusaders problems is just wrong.'"
Do you honestly think that SL was expanded for it's own sake ?
Sorry, but that just isn't the case.
The Crusaders were without doubt fast tracked into the top flight and as time as proved this was a mistake, although had thier progression been more patient, they would have come in as a much stronger team and this would have no doubt increased theeir value to the competition.
I may well be a luddite, but if only we could revet to a meaningful P/R system where the bottom club is reklegated and the3 top team promoted, there would certainly be less bad feeling between the clubs and thier supporters.
I fully realise that the gulf between the top 2 divisions in now too wide for this to happen, but thats life...............
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"I may well be a luddite, but if only we could revet to a meaningful P/R system where the bottom club is reklegated and the3 top team promoted, there would certainly be less bad feeling between the clubs and thier supporters.'"
No. There might be less bad feeling between [isome[/i clubs and [isome[/i supporters. And remember that the majority of SL club chairmen supported franchising or it would never have happened.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Do you honestly think that SL was expanded for it's own sake ?
Sorry, but that just isn't the case.
The Crusaders were without doubt fast tracked into the top flight and as time as proved this was a mistake, although had thier progression been more patient, they would have come in as a much stronger team and this would have no doubt increased theeir value to the competition.
I may well be a luddite, but if only we could revet to a meaningful P/R system where the bottom club is reklegated and the3 top team promoted, there would certainly be less bad feeling between the clubs and thier supporters.
I fully realise that the gulf between the top 2 divisions in now too wide for this to happen, but thats life...............'"
Yes I do. For 2 reasons - that it stopped clubs having to play the same team 3 or 4 times whilst retaining the same number of games. And because the decision was made several years before -
"The basis for the licensing process was established in May 2005 when the RFL, in full consultation with member clubs, drew up a strategy document"
"The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs"
That's a statement by the RFL's lawyer in 2008, showing that the decision to expand to 14 clubs was not only made 3 years earlier but also by the clubs themselves.
It wouldn't have mattered if Crusaders were given more time, without a financial backer they would still have folded, in the same way that a lot of heartland clubs rely upon their financial backer to fund their losses.
I too want P&R, because it's the best way. But it's only the best way when clubs are relatively equal off-the field and there isn't as big a gap between the leagues. When we have that situation I'd be perfectly happy to revert back to P&R.
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| Quote ="Him"Yes I do. For 2 reasons - that it stopped clubs having to play the same team 3 or 4 times whilst retaining the same number of games. And because the decision was made several years before -
"The basis for the licensing process was established in May 2005 when the RFL, in full consultation with member clubs, drew up a strategy document"
"The document concluded that the competition should be expanded to 14 clubs"
That's a statement by the RFL's lawyer in 2008, showing that the decision to expand to 14 clubs was not only made 3 years earlier but also by the clubs themselves.
It wouldn't have mattered if Crusaders were given more time, without a financial backer they would still have folded, in the same way that a lot of heartland clubs rely upon their financial backer to fund their losses.
I too want P&R, because it's the best way. But it's only the best way when clubs are relatively equal off-the field and there isn't as big a gap between the leagues. When we have that situation I'd be perfectly happy to revert back to P&R.'"
Fair comment, I yeild to your superior knowledge but this does coincide with the formation of the Crusaders, so perhaps there was a different agenda ?
Btw, IF the Bulls dont get through this, although I think they probably will, would you advocate Halifax taking their place ?
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Fair comment, I yeild to your superior knowledge
but this does coincide with the formation of the Crusaders, so perhaps there was a different agenda ?
Btw, IF the Bulls dont get through this, although I think they probably will, would you advocate Halifax taking their place ?'"
There aren't many times people have said that!
Don't get me wrong, I too think the RFL were desperate to have Crusaders in, I just don't think franchising or the league expansion were related to Crusaders.
I too think there will be some form of Bradford Bulls, whether it's a newco or not. If they do disappear though then yes I'd be happy with Fax taking the empty place for 2013 & 2014.
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| Quote ="Him"It's a far fairer system. It takes the whole club into account over a number of years rather than simply on-field performance in 1 year.
No it wasn't. It was claimed it would help clubs to stop over reaching themselves financially. It has. If, with licensing & a salary cap, clubs are still spending more than they bring in - who's fault is that?
Yes let's look at what happened. Wakey's owner went bust due to his investments outside RL, Crusaders owner buggered off, Bradford -we don't know the full picture yet. Please describe how licensing was to blame for these things.
London haven't gone into admin under licensing, that was under P&R, so well done for successfully sh|tting all over your own argument.'"
I'm not saying that off field criteria such as ground capacity etc shouldn't count towards promotion, but the main qualification should be on the pitch. Crusaders' owner buggered off - what a recommendation! What about Celtic Crusders owner? Pulled the rug. And the RFL condoning their fielding of ineligible players -all under the franchise. Wakey have been bust twice whilst in SL. But still allowed a licence even with the slum that is now Belle Vue. As for London they may have avoided administration but only by the skin of their teeth. And if anyone can convince me that their crowds or their perfomances on the pitch justify them a place in SL I'll stand the York drop.
There is no way that anyone in their right mind can justify the franchising system. Particularly after they were going let Crusaders continue and nodded through the Bulls licence. The whole thing is a joke. I predicted when it was instituted that there'd be bankruptcies and I've been proved correct. Time to abandon a policy described by fans of many other sports as "bizarrre"
I'm a Fev fan and hope we'll get in eventually. But I reckon for starters drop the Bulls and let 'Fax in. They've got the ground, they've got the record and given a year or so they could be pulling fans from the Bradford area just like the Bulls did when they dropped out of SL.
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| Quote ="major hound"I'm not saying that off field criteria such as ground capacity etc shouldn't count towards promotion, but the main qualification should be on the pitch. Crusaders' owner buggered off - what a recommendation! What about Celtic Crusders owner? Pulled the rug.'" Why are these relevant to franchising? surely the Crusaders and Celtic owners could have done the same under P+R Quote And the RFL condoning their fielding of ineligible players -all under the franchise.'" or didnt happen. Quote Wakey have been bust twice whilst in SL. But still allowed a licence even with the slum that is now Belle Vue. '" and now have a great new stadium on the way after years and years of struggling. Quote As for London they may have avoided administration but only by the skin of their teeth. And if anyone can convince me that their crowds or their perfomances on the pitch justify them a place in SL I'll stand the York drop.'" They have never finished bottom, surely that is the only criteria for you?
Quote There is no way that anyone in their right mind can justify the franchising system. Particularly after they were going let Crusaders continue and nodded through the Bulls licence. The whole thing is a joke. I predicted when it was instituted that there'd be bankruptcies and I've been proved correct. '" clubs went bust under P+R, Crusaders werent guaranteed to be relegated even under P+R and would have been promoted under P+R Quote Time to abandon a policy described by fans of many other sports as "bizarrre"'" And replace it with what? one which spent thirty years being proved not to work?
Quote I'm a Fev fan and hope we'll get in eventually. But I reckon for starters drop the Bulls and let 'Fax in. They've got the ground, they've got the record and given a year or so they could be pulling fans from the Bradford area just like the Bulls did when they dropped out of SL.'" Or they could not be able to survive on their terrible (by SL standards) crowds, struggle to put together a competitive side, get hammered all season, lose all their money, go bankrupt, get relegated and the whole pointless, counterproductive idiocy can start all over again
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| Smokey, your posts with regards the Celtic fiasco are quire ridiculous, the RFL funded them through the NL s via community development grants, they were advised by the RFL how to circumvent Visa regulations, they were a joke in the lower leagues and lasted exactly how long we said they would
You cant pretend all you want it didnt happen, but it did , and every time you post to the contrary you look more and more stupid
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| Quote ="Starbug"Smokey, your posts with regards the Celtic fiasco are quire ridiculous, the RFL funded them through the NL s via community development grants, they were advised by the RFL how to circumvent Visa regulations, they were a joke in the lower leagues and lasted exactly how long we said they would
You cant pretend all you want it didnt happen, but it did , and every time you post to the contrary you look more and more stupid'"
You can carry on making up things, and to be fair, you have been corrected so many times it is out right lying, but the only people it convinces are the people who have already made the same idiotic circular conclusion as you already.
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| Quote ="Him"I'm not ok with P&R based only on team performance, no. That only works when there is a far smaller gap between leagues.
Am I ok with the RFL helping out a new club with the potential Crusaders had, in an expansion area, yes. In the same way you think the RFL should run and provide financial assistance to London Broncos.
No I haven't, I was meaning if there had been no licensing and under a normal P&R system, with an expansion of SL the top 2 NL teams would have been promoted at the end of the 2008 season. Crusaders were the 2nd best NL team.
So the argument that licensing was either designed purely to admit Crusaders, that somehow Widnes or Fev would have been in SL if it weren't for licensing or that licensing led to Crusaders problems is just wrong.'"
You are ok with the RFL ' helping out ' an expansion club with ' potential ' ?
By allowing, encouraging, helping, paying them to Cheat the salary cap and Visa regulations of the country?
Incredible
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"You can carry on making up things, and to be fair, you have been corrected so many times it is out right lying, but the only people it convinces are the people who have already made the same idiotic circular conclusion as you already.'"
Nothing I have posted on the Crusaders fiasco has been made up, it happened, the RFL ploughed hundreds of thousands of pounds through Mr Samuels company to finance the Celtic Crusaders, they advised them how to circumvent the Visa rules, the Crusaders lasted 1 year, 1 season, as we all suggested, it was a complete joke, as is your defence of it
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| Quote ="Starbug"Nothing I have posted on the Crusaders fiasco has been made up, it happened, the RFL ploughed hundreds of thousands of pounds through Mr Samuels company to finance the Celtic Crusaders, they advised them how to circumvent the Visa rules, the Crusaders lasted 1 year, 1 season, as we all suggested, it was a complete joke, as is your defence of it'"
I suppose you have evidence of this? No? What a surprise!
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I suppose you have evidence of this?'"
Personally told to me by RFL employees and former Celtic players
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| Quote ="Starbug"Personally told to me by RFL employees and former Celtic players'"
Are they the same RFL employees who told you Leigh were banned from running an academy?
Where they the same players who told you the UKBA never reported to the RFL and the RFL never acted on the UKBA's report?
Any of these players or employees made any kind of public comment on these or are they just secrets only you get told in confidence to spread on RL forums when it is convenient for your argument?
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| Quote ="Starbug"You are ok with the RFL ' helping out ' an expansion club with ' potential ' ?
By allowing, encouraging, helping, paying them to Cheat the salary cap and Visa regulations of the country?
Incredible'"
What's the difference between the RFL financially assisting Crusaders and the RFL financially assisting London, as you have advocated? Is it because one affected Championship clubs and the other only affects SL clubs?
Why the hypocritical stance?
Do you think Licensing was to blame for Crusaders problems?
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