Excellent point, well made.

It may well be boring, but if you're looking for reasons why this sport is regressing, looking at why one of our better run, most recognised and marketable clubs is losing £680k in sponsorship is probably a good starting point.

RU is the sport of The Establishment and in England it's largely based around the capital and whether we like it or not, the game is way, way better connected than RL.
Also, the face that it commands so media attention, give it a huge advantage when talking to sponsors.

RL is looking to improve it's media appeal and who knows, our expansion into N America and further into France should help in this area but, nobody quite knows and IF we keep on taking the wrong options, the current system being yet another of these, it wont matter how far and wide "we" are spread, because the game in the UK could well be dead.

This post just stinks if anti expansionism, from a suppoter if a club who jyst about manage an away folliwing in the low hundreds, complaing that otjer sudes only bring fans in similar numbers. And rely on the big city neighbors away support to bump up the average crowds.
I hope Torobto and Toulouse come in and shake it up a bit.

have you been drinking?

And as I said, that's the risk. The problem is, the game in the UK could well be dead anyway if we don't take that risk. How do we get this sport into a position where we can generate commercial and media investment by insisting that we should only offer those investors what we are already offering them?

I completely understand why people insist on saying "focus on the heartlands", but what does this actually mean in reality? We've had 120 years and more to "focus on the heartlands" and here we are, with declining participation, falling crowds, an aging audience, falling commercial income in comparison to other sports and more and more clubs in financial distress. So what does "focusing on the heartlands" mean? Giving out more central funding (much of which seems to go purely on paying off HMRC debts)? Giving out more cheap tickets? Betting the farm on Eddie Hearn?

To bring it back to the original question, that's why I think that this obsession with "away fans" is the wrong point of focus. As a sport we are probably generating as much direct revenue from our fanbase as we can - look at how our support base only supports international fixtures if the discount codes come out. The sport needs to follow the lead of pretty much every other successful professional sport and look for revenue beyond that fan base. Again, how do we do that by simply insisting that expansion won't work, cannot work, and by offering nothing new to those investors that aren't interested in what is already on the table?

Have you seen the weather cause i have.

Nice one.

I cant decide whether you are trying to be humorous or whether you are just daft ?

Read back the first post and how it relates to RL "events" and try to work out whether an increasing number of overseas expansion clubs will have a positive or negative effect on attendances and if you still think the answer is "positive", please can you explain why it is that RL fans, from clubs not involved in the semis are getting give away ticket offers just 2 weeks before the semi final double header.
I realise that the English clubs involved also carry responsibility for the lack of ticket sales but, I ask again:
IF there are 3 overseas sides (and possibly London) in SL, how will this affect attendances at the major RL events:
Magic. Grand Final and Challenge Cup Final ?
And, as you have decided to throw an anti Wakefield slant on this one, I can absolutely assure you that should they ever make it to a Grand Final or Challenge Cup Final, the would sell rather more tickets than all 3/4 clubs mentioned put together

Read my signature.....go on, read it.
AWAY fans are a minuscule part of the game and the only people who rely on them are clubs who have disconnected with their own home base through laziness....Wakefield being a prime example......bloody shocking attendances in a metro area that size but when you spend your cash avoiding the middle 8's rather than spend it on decent facilities, you keep your 3,000 core suPPorters happy.......but you'll never attract new ones.....Warrington/St Helens are great examples of what a new stadium brings...New Sponsors and bigger gates........that's why the top 5 or 6 sides are all close to 10K averages or over......not because of away fans!

Read my post !

I'm not talking about the weekly rounds, I'm asking about the RL "events", Cup Finals, Magic and the upcoming semi final, which doesnt seem to be selling too well.

Could of sworn I was at Wembley a few years back and Catalans were there......think it got more than 16k more fans than last years final......strange that,
READ MY SIG......you anti-expansionist! There is no place for all three of Castleford, Wakefield and Featherstone in the SuperLeague......But, the same way that NZ RU has teams like Wellington Lions, Manawat Turbos and Taranaki whatever's in their second tier, these clubs fee the HURRICANES in Super Rugby, if we want the game to flourish, then the three clubs above need to fee 1 SL club......so whining pr1x like yourself can go to watch wakefield, but true fans of the sport will also go to watch Calder Cougars (or the like) when they host Toronto.......
Read my signature again and then ask yourself why it is only fans of small clus that ever whine about away fans!

Really? This again?
Exeter, Coventry, Middlesex, Newcastle, Manchester, Reading, Gloucester, Leicester, Northampton, Bath, Worcester and 1 club in London.........even if I give you Quins in Middlesex, it's still 2 from 12 and it'll be 2 from 12 next season


Really.....step away from this stupid topic now, because you're just going to dig yourself a deeper hole. Away fans have little impact on the fiscal health of any competition and it is only the weak clubs who seem obsessed with them!

Sorry but, you are wide of the mark concerning my views on expansion, although I do have a problem with Toronto being part of "our" comp. I think it just not practical.
The bigger picture of establishing RL in N. America may well make it worthwhile and only time will prove this but, the cost and timing issues in having a league, with teams so geographically spread is just crackers.
Call me whatever you want, it matters not but, please answer the question that I asked about the effect on major events: Magic, Grand Final and Challenge Cup Final.

Your point about the final attendance looks interesting but you seem to have deliberately removed any context.
There may have been 76000 for the final where Catalan took part, which may compare well with last year but, there were 83000 the year prior and over 85000 the year following.



Just a simple question for you regarding the double header, which is what sparked my post and that is whether you think the appearance of Catalan has : a) forced the RFL to stage a double header so as not to have one of the games played in a half empty stadium.
b) had a negative effect on ticket sales, leading to a giveaway offer for the game in just 10 days time.

WRONG........
St Helens v Huddersfield (Twickenham attendance) 65,187
Catalans v St Helens, 2007 Attendance 84,241
Hull v St Helens 2008 Attendance 82,241
Wire v Hudds 2009 Attendance 76,560
.....shall I go on?


Regardless of if Catalan v London and Toronto v Toulouse were the SF line up this year, the RFL were always planning to have a double header this year.....they get a kick back from the local council for hosting it as well as the ticket revenue.....it's why Newcastle is preferrd ahead of a ground nearer the heartlands......SFA TO DO WITH EXPANSION OR GROWING THE GAME AND EVERYTHING TO DO WITH £

As I say...step away now. Away fans are becoming even less of a relevance now.....TV money, hosting rights, geographical reach (on a budget) and a host of other things come before the fans, or have you missed the Thursday night scheduling?

My error on attendances, should have gone to specsavers


I've no idea on the RFL plans prior to the semis being drawn but, there didnt appear to be any advance notice of the double header or, did i miss that as well ?

I agree about fans being "less important", which is clear from the constant changing of fixtures and the spread over different days.
THe cheap tickets must simply be some late "window dressing" to cover the empty seats at The Macron.

Are you new to RL? Late discounting is always on offer.......unless there's earlier discounting, like being able to buy next years CC Final tickets almost immediately after the CC Final for a tenner as was the case a couple of years back.

4,568 - Widnes
10,366 - Leeds
10,347 - Hull FC
2,328 - Salford
7,137 - Castleford
6,711 - HKR
9,138 - St Helens
9,121* - Hudds
???? - Wakefield
8,807 - Wire
????? - Wigan

7613 is the average attendance when catalans visit the UK....831 fewer than the entire competition average.....which means that the 9 venues with reported attendances will gave been down a collective £16,000 each in ticket revenues at £20 a ticket......except....Widnes, Salford, Huddersfield, Castleford, Wire and Hull FC have all had LOWER attendances than those reported for Catalans visits......6 from 9.....so again I say......STEP AWAY FROM THE AWAY ATTENDANCE DEBATE.........It's unwinnable for you!

Not new at all and every RL fan in the land is used to the early bird offers.
What we received yesterday, for a game in 10 days time, was certainly not an "early bird" offer and looked more like a "best sell some tickets before kick off" offer.

I/we were delighted to take advantage, which is what got me thinking again about "expansion clubs".
Regarding Catalan visits to England, you are failing to take account of the "promotions" that take place for their games.

It was £12 a pop when they came to Wakefield a couple of weeks ago, albeit, there was also a clash with the England world cup game.

And you don't think that the fact that it was the first final at the New Wembley this century may not have had something to do with the attendance?

I think is most definitely had something to do with it........but it doesn't prove/disprove that the French being finalists majorly impacted on the gate......same way that the London final was impacted as being the last one at the old Wembley, but they still delivered 13k more than the previous final when Sheffield turned over Wigan.......Hull v Wigan last year got 68,500........The reality is that there are about 50k neutrals at the cc Final....if not more.....and those fans aren't getting any younger, so we need to attract new ones.

If we pander to the desires of anti-expansionists, then by all means pull up the drawbridge and play with 6 teams from each side of the Pennines, but don't start threads blaming the BBC for treating us like a northern hobby, because that's exactly what we come across as to the majority of English People.....don't whine when SKY TV decide that they can offer us less and nobody else wants to pay for the rights....don't slag off the RFL for bringing us bargain box sponsors.....if we want to survive, we need to expand and the old saying about egg breaking while making an omelette is apt here.......if we lose a few clubs then we lose them....it's about survival of the game, not whether wakefield get to play Castleford at home and get 3k above their 4k average because the away fans could walk to the ground.....giving clubs like Wakey, Widnes, Salford Leigh, London etc £1,800,000 is killing the sport because those clubs spend every cent of it trying to survive so they can have it again next year......

I am no fan of the leg-up Toronto have had this season and I have serious doubts about the longevity of their existence once the novelty has worn off and they are playing to 3k gates......but Away Fans is not the reason to exclude expansion sides.....it is a smoke screen. The fact that without the 7k for Castleford, Wakefield only attract 4k to games isn't the fault of Catalans, Toulouse or Toronto.......it's the fault of Wakefield. The City of Wakefield is 340,000 people strong, yet this club with a rich history can't attract little more than 1% to games.

Of course it was ,it was certainly the reason that i attended that day and my mrs who had not been to a game before or since.

Obviously the poster knows it, hence the small and selective attendances given .

Had he gone on he would have highlighted that the OP was indeed correct and that CC final attendances are on the slide.

It will be very interesting to see the attendance this year, particularly should Catalans make the final.

And my original post and those thereafter had feck all to do with Wakefield.
Perhaps the reason for the £15 all in ticket/travel and free drink is down to the game being on its

and nothing whatsoever to do with the lack of French fans willing to take a trip to Bolton and maybe we should look closer to home for the apathy towards the fixture



The one sure thing is that not being able to clear 25000 tickets for a decent event is poor and for this fixture, at a neutral venue, we can certainly point the finger of blame at AWAY FANS, many of whom dont have to travel too far for the games.

1. Well that's 2 of the 84,241 then.......and as I have already said, it did impact on the gate.
2. We've had 11 finals at the new Wembley...averaging 78,860. The last 11 at the old Wembley averaged 75,550....or maybe I've given too many attendances now?
3. See the above. Attendances fluctuate at the challenge Cup Final and have hovered between 70,000 and 95,000 at Wembley since the second world war but the last 11 at New Wembley are better than the last 11 at the old.
4. It matters little if Catalans are there or not...the vast majority of supporters are neutrals anyway and like you and your good lady wife back 11 years ago.

Happy to debate the pro's and con's of expansion with anyone, but please leave the red herring of "away fans" out of it....they have little impact at Club level and at "event level"it becomes an issue for the RFL to cope with and not fans of badly run clubs. As for the fiscals, the RFL turn over about £25,000,000 a year......St Helens would sell 14,000 tickets, Catalans maybe 6,000.....so 8,000 fewer tickets @ £20 will cost the RFL about .0064% of their turnover.....or what they used to spend on suits and pies for Nigel!

As a London fan I am well versed in the opinions of pit villagers who distrust anything that's not local and we put up with years of lies and innuendo about extra money and being protected, generally from fans of badly run clubs who may soon be jettisoned as they just fritter away their sky allowance on surviving whilst playing in crumbling stadiums and offering nothing to the game.

That average could even be higher under normal circumstances. Leeds usually get around 13k for the Catalans game but with the stadium work and it being played on a Wednesday because it got called off for snow earlier in the year obviously hurt it.

Are you so anti northern ?

You still haven't com up with any reasons why the Bolton semi final "event" has sold so poorly.
I suggested that this may be to do with 25% of the sides competing being from France, which you have tried hard to disprove but, would you care to offer some of your infinite wisdom as to the reason for this when we have 3 of the "big 4" clubs competing for a Wembley final ?
Also why tickets which were £25 are now being jobbed out at £15, including travel.